34 F water NE USA, but warm here in ScubaBoard!

[scuba41girl]

Welcome to the board!

 

[dave4868]

Heck, my water temp was warm on today's dive compared to yours: 36 degrees.

My hands and feet start to get colds after about an hour, so tell us what you're wearing to stay warm for 100 mins in 34 degrees.

Welcome to the board!!

​

Thanks again for the nice welcome from everyone!

Rick, I'm always glad to share some cold water insulation tips because I was amazed by the improvement in comfort and dexterity I experienced. Let me know what works for you, too. You probably do most of what I do, but for what it's worth....

Essentially, what I do for really cold water, such as in the 30's, is to increase the layers of insulation in my drysuit and drygloves to increase the air and loft, but being careful to avoid constriction or tight areas.

In addition, an "ice cap" underhood makes a huge difference in reducing heat loss.

Plus, the use of a homemade "fleece chest pad" turned out to be quite important. Without it, the material on the chest would be compressed, especially when I was horizontal, and I would feel the cold slowly sapping my core heat there.

My experience was similar to yours, I think, that an hour would be about my limit because of hand and foot discomfort, but more importantly, because of the significant loss of dexterity, which can be a real hazard since I mostly dive solo. I didn't like coming close to the point of not being able to manipulate my drysuit inflator, etc.

The key for me was having a drysuit large enough to accomodate more layers of insulation, then using enough lead to get slightly beyond the minimum needed with an empty tank. That extra air improves loft of the materials besides being the prime insulator.

The other factor was choosing insulation that wouldn't create tight areas which might constrict blood flow to the extremities. Polartec and polypropylene worked well, since they will bend and crush pretty easily where needed.

Specifically, here's what I do.

For temps above 40 F, I usually mix and match layers of Polartec and polypropylene outdoor wear. (Purchased from Cabela's.) (The figures below are for gm/yd weights).

Example for above 40 F:

Polypropylene and Polartec layers on both legs and torso of 100 + 300, respectively.

PLUS a fleece chest pad, created by folding the sheet of fleece twice to make 4 layers, with a final size of about 12x18". This would be approximately equivalent to 400 wt. fleece when folded. This is justfleece blanket material from WalMart or elsewhere.

Two layers of heavy socks (mine happen to be a thick wool sock and a Weezle sock). Rockboots laced as loosely as possible. I'll raise my feet at the beginning of a dive to get more air into the feet. I'll replace that air as needed, but it stays as long as I fin in my usual bent-knee position.

I've also used Polartec socks, but they weren't quite as warm because they crush and breathe too easily, I think.

SI TECH ring system with PVC drygloves, one size oversize. I wear two sets of liners, a lightweight polypropylene set under the heavier original set. I buy sizes loose enough to avoid constriction of blood flow in my fingers.

Henderson 1/8" neoprene "ice cap" hood worn under my DUI hood.

I sometimes will add a couple 1/8" neoprene neck bands that I fashioned out of 2" wide strips. They help keep the cold water off the major arteries in front of my neck.

Lead (or other weight), for me in this set up with a single HP steel 120 and attached AL30 pony, will be around 44 to 47 lbs. It's not so much that would cause massive air shifting, but enough to create a half inch layer above my kidneys and shoulders when horizontal. This is about 5 lbs more than the minimum I would need. When I've used close to the minimum, I've been noticeably colder.

Anyway, for colder water I change things a bit.

Example for water temps in the 30's:

I had the good fortune of picking up, for a song, a brand-new Weezle Extreme Plus undergarment a few years ago. It's a little warmer per volume than the Polartec. It's actually too warm above 40 F. I'd guess it's probably right up there with the 400 weight Thinsulate undergarments.

I use the Weezle because it's a little warmer than the layered Polartec, even with a third layer of 200. It's also easier to put on then all those layers of Polartec and less likely to cause constriction points in the armpits and backs of knees.

With the Weezle, the first layer is 100 wt polypropylene, then the fleece chest pad, then the Weezle Extreme Plus.

Socks are the same.

Gloves are the same, although I've found it necessary for temps in the low 30's to go with an even larger glove and use two of the heavier yellow liners. The dexterity is still better than with 1/4" neoprene mitts. I can work all of my tiny little camera housing buttons. That has actually been effective for 110 minutes in 32 F saltwater once. For dives like that, although rare, I might add a fleece pad over my kidneys somehow.

I increase my lead to about 52 lbs with the Weezle setup.


By the way, I like the SI TECH gloves because extra PVC gloves can be purchased inexpensively at places like Seattle Marine for around $20. For use under the original yellow liners, lightweight white polypropylene glove liners are cheap. I purchased a bunch at a fishermen's supply house in Gloucester for $1.12 a pair retail.

I buy sizes that aren't too tight. My goal is to avoid restricting blood flow and my hands stay very warm as a result.

Also, the SI TECH ring system is nice because it's so easy to change the outer gloves and because it's a temporary attachment to the wrist seal. It also allows the wrist seal to remain functional with the system in place.

Anyway, I've gone on too long probably. Obviously, I enjoy talking about this subject.

Let me know what you've done to tweak your thermal protection so I can borrow some of your ideas.

Kindest regards,

Dave C

 

[crazy_clyde_NFLD]

We have some very cold water here in Newfoundland, A couple of weeks ago me and my dive buddy hit a thermal pocket that registered 25 degrees. Instant Ice cubes.
I’ve attached the readout from my buddy’s computer below.

 

[Rick Inman]

Nice post, Dave!

I do about the same thing, except for the chest pad. My body stays nice and warm, it's just the feet and hands that get cold. My doctor suggests that I have a mild case of Renaults. After reading your post, I'm wondering if my undies (layers) are too tight around the wrists and ankles and cutting off warm blood flow. I think I'm make a couple of cuts and see if that helps, and trim the wrist seals back.

I also use argon.

I also find that staying warm before the dive (not standing around with your feet in the snow in 10 degree air temps) is important. Starting the dive already cold is not good.

And finally, having a good pee valve. Immersion in cold water causes diaeresis, which causes the body to divert blood and energy to the bladder to keep the urine warm. Which is one of the reasons why, when you gotta pee, you feel colder. And being well hydrated also keeps you warmer, and when you know you can go, you're not reluctant to liquid up good before the dive.

 

[Vtdiver2]

Unfortunately we didn't get to dive today. I commited the cardinal sin of believing info someone else gave me. I got the wrong tide info from someone , it was low when he said high and sooooooooooooooo. Still prayin for good Ice in Feb in Vermont.

Are you diving with Victory Sports?
Mallets Bay is covered now, and I've seen skaters out on th lake. The weather forecast for the end of the week is for frigid temps. When are you coming?
C-Dawg

 

[dave4868]

Nice post, Dave!

I do about the same thing, except for the chest pad. My body stays nice and warm, it's just the feet and hands that get cold. My doctor suggests that I have a mild case of Renaults. After reading your post, I'm wondering if my undies (layers) are too tight around the wrists and ankles and cutting off warm blood flow. I think I'm make a couple of cuts and see if that helps, and trim the wrist seals back.

Thanks, Rick.

Give that chest pad a try. It's simple, inexpensive, requires only 3 or 4 lbs of lead to offset and it will help you retain a little more heat in your core, even though it doesn't feel cold now. Core heat is very important for providing warmth to the extremities.

By the way, you've probably researched it already, but here's an excellent guide to Raynaud's disease.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/raynauds-disease/DS00433

Especially this section on Self-care:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/raynauds-disease/DS00433/DSECTION=9

I think you're right about loosening up those wrist and ankle constrictions, and I think it would reduce some triggers to Raynaud's phenomenon, if your doctor is correct. Prevention of the arterial spasm is easier than reversing it.

For me, it doesn't take much vascular constriction, even with my normal circulation, to gradually affect the temperature of my extremities. I know this is true after seeing how much longer I stayed warm on a dive after loosening things up.

To do these longer, colder dives, I made some other adjustments. These probably aren't news to you, but I'll mention them anyway.

• I roll one pair of my socks down off the calf, where it was tight, so it doubles up loosely above the ankle. Ankles and wrists are where the arteries are close to the surface and the blood can lose quite a bit of heat there.
• My first sock layer is a thick but loose-fitting wool sock that doesn't compress much and doesn't absorb much moisture. During the fin stroke, the material is able to maintain most of its loft and air movement is minimized, I believe. The air layer becomes a more stable "microclimate".
• I loosen my bcd shoulder straps to reduce their pressure between the collarbone and shoulder. Just like leaning over the back of a hard wooden chair and having my hand fall asleep, I know these straps can reduce blood flow there.
• During the dive, I extend my arms a little further to reduce tightness in my armpits or elbows. Likewise, I loosen and vary my grip on the flag handle. I clip off my camera housing and other items.

I've been amazed how fast my fingers will get cold if I don't remind myself to keep changing grip and body position, and to exercise a little during the dive. (My usual dives are REALLY lazy, like a pair of fin strokes every two seconds!)

I also find that staying warm before the dive (not standing around with your feet in the snow in 10 degree air temps) is important. Starting the dive already cold is not good.

Boy, I hear you about the importance of staying warm before the dive. I find I lose significant amounts of core heat without knowing it while gearing up. It's gotten worse as I've gotten older.

I get some funny looks, but it doesn't have to be very cold or windy for me to put on a snowmobile suit and balaclava prior to setting up the gear. Divers must think I'm a real freak show until they see the long dives.

I find it's better to don the undergarments and drysuit last, to not sweat up the undergarments excessively.

And finally, having a good pee valve. Immersion in cold water causes diaeresis, which causes the body to divert blood and energy to the bladder to keep the urine warm. Which is one of the reasons why, when you gotta pee, you feel colder. And being well hydrated also keeps you warmer, and when you know you can go, you're not reluctant to liquid up good before the dive.

I'd beg to differ a bit one part of that first theory, namely the diverting of body energy to keep the urine warm, but, either way, there have been times I wished desperately that I had a pee valve! On that I can agree!

I definitely agree being well hydrated is important. Generally, though, I admit I only increase my fluid intake if I'm doing some deeper dives, to improve my off-gassing. Otherwise, I take the easy way and avoid some of the full bladder issues by not getting over-hydrated.

Dave C

 

[pir8]

Are you diving with Victory Sports?
Mallets Bay is covered now, and I've seen skaters out on th lake. The weather forecast for the end of the week is for frigid temps. When are you coming?
C-Dawg

Yes that is the shop we are using but I am not organizing this trip. Right now we are scheduling for Presidents Day weekend(don't have a calendar in front of me). Do you know them, I haven't dove with them before but people in the group I will be with are recommending them highly.

 

[HarleyDiver_FL]

Welcome aboard

 

[DandyDon]

34?! :11: Jeeze, I have done 47, but wow.

If you haven't yet, click Forums above and start going thru the list - looking for those of interest to you, especially your local dive club. Always good to try a Search before starting a new thread, tho and be careful about posting Threads & Replies without reading the Stickies at the tops of most forums. Click the link in my Sig below to PM me if I can help you around here..

don

 

[Vtdiver2]

Yes that is the shop we are using but I am not organizing this trip. Right now we are scheduling for Presidents Day weekend(don't have a calendar in front of me). Do you know them, I haven't dove with them before but people in the group I will be with are recommending them highly.

Yeah, I've been diving out of that shop for about 8 years, and even work there a couple of days a month helping out. Mallets Bay is frozen over and people are skating on it. The broad lake, where the wrecks are hasn't frozen yet, but temps are in the single digits for the next few days, so it'll probably happen. Hopefully the weather holds,
See you when you get here President's Day weekend,
C-Dawg