75 ft out of air, What do YOU do?

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NetDoc once bubbled...
This is how I see it at this point...

A few of us contend...

that a OW diver at 75 ft. has no need to learn to breathe off of a BC. Gas management skills are a far better choice and breathing the BC only adds additional task loading in a crisis situation. There is plenty of air in your lungs and tank to ascend without having to resort to a "caver" thing.

Problems can and will occur while diving. These do not neccesarily lead to accidents and in fact they shouldn't. Divers should be trained in how to deal with problems before they hit the suds.

So, I further contend that there is no reason for a person to need to do an ESA other than gross incompetence or error. All of the problems listed by various posters are easily overcome with the proper equipment and training (including buddy skills) without the need for an ESA. An ESA indicates multiple failures in any diver. There is no way I could accept such a diver as having good diving skills. There is no way that I could even accept that attitude in a buddy or a student. I would call the dive and/or class. If that angers you, then so be it.

But my words are being twisted to the point that none of my students ever have a problem, and that I would not help a paniced diver if they found themselves in such a predicament. When I point out how words were twisted for yet another poster (and here I thought is was just me) then I am accused of being a bad moderator and exercising poor judgement.

Counterpoint

If an ESA should ever occur, for whatever reason, you may want a breath of air.

There's one in your wing, by jiminy! Whodathunk?

Learning how to get it is easy and free!

You can probably make it on your lungs, too. Probably. Almost always.

How, or why, or who, or when one does an ESA is -totally irrelevent- to the scenario, -especially- -while- you're doing an ESA.

No choice is being made between gas managment skills and contingency drills, both are swell.

No need to choose one or the other, or feel that for some reason they are mutually exclusive of each other.

I'm living proof that you -can- check you SPG -and- practice OOA drills -simultaneously-.

Some people seem to think prevention planning is the sign of poor diving.

If you would rather buddy with someone that feels that their excellent training negates the need to consider rescue contingencies, as opposed to someone who is well trained -and- continues his learning of unconventional contingencies, that's within your, er, aegis. :)
 
Some people seem to think prevention planning is the sign of poor diving.
I believe that prevention planning is the essense of safe diving. Are you agreeing with me? Safe Diving is no accident. Of course you could be refering to someone else, but since you quoted my whole post, I think not.
 
NetDoc once bubbled...

I believe that prevention planning is the essense of safe diving. Are you agreeing with me? Safe Diving is no accident. Of course you could be refering to someone else, but since you quoted my whole post, I think not.

Clarification please:

"There is no way that I could even accept that attitude in a buddy or a student. I would call the dive and/or class. If that angers you, then so be it."

This, too, please:

"Stay away from those who think accidents are inevitable... you can tell them by the spare air they carry or they way they huff on their BC."
 
I believe and train dive accident PREVENTION...

I won't dive with or try to train anyone who thinks that accidents just happen for no particular reason. I won't dive with anyone who thinks that they don't get narced either. I hope that you would agree that I am able to choose my buddies and my students.
 
NetDoc once bubbled...
I believe and train dive accident PREVENTION...

I won't dive with or try to train anyone who thinks that accidents just happen for no particular reason. I won't dive with anyone who thinks that they don't get narced either.


That's swell, but could you clarify those two passages, so I don't twist them.

I hope that you would agree that I am able to choose my buddies and my students.

Right in my previous post: "If you would rather buddy with someone that feels that their excellent training negates the need to consider rescue contingencies, as opposed to someone who is well trained -and- continues his learning of unconventional contingencies, that's within your, er, aegis. :)"
 
Most problems and accidents are caused by the diver... not their equipment. Those that substitute equipment or gimmicks for training or who glom onto procedures that are questionable at best scare me. There is no need for a spare air/pony in a 75' OW environment. It only adds task loading and could never hope to provide as much air as your buddy's tank. Also, there is no need for an ESA (much less huffing your BC) if you plan and execute your dive with care. First, you should never run out (even with equipment failures), but if you do, then your best redundant air supply is your buddy.

When presented with the possibility of diving with a careless buddy like this, I choose "no". Spare air as well as other signs will cause me to question the suitability of a particular diver as a buddy. If I can't be sure, then I call the dive, and I recommend that you do the same. There is nothing down there worth dying for!
 
There is no need for a spare air/pony in a 75' OW environment. It only adds task loading and could never hope to provide as much air as your buddy's tank.

Some of us choose to dive without a buddy, and for us, there is a very good reason to have a pony in a 75' OW environment.

(Before someone says "DOUBLES!" I will note that the Pony is both lighter and has other advantages - such as being able to be used as a bailout bottle sans gear in the case of a serious entanglement that you cannot recover from, along with being able to be handed off - that make it preferrable in an OW environment for many users.)
 
NetDoc once bubbled...


You threw another one in...


Sorry, had to find it.

Most problems and accidents are caused by the diver... not their equipment. Those that substitute equipment or gimmicks for training or who glom onto procedures that are questionable at best scare me. There is no need for a spare air/pony in a 75' OW environment. It only adds task loading and could never hope to provide as much air as your buddy's tank. Also, there is no need for an ESA (much less huffing your BC) if you plan and execute your dive with care. First, you should never run out (even with equipment failures), but if you do, then your best redundant air supply is your buddy.

"Those that substitute equipment or gimmicks for training or who glom onto procedures that are questionable at best scare me."

So, and I'm asking here, you're saying that any diver with a RAS, or that practices OOA/ESA procedures of any kind, above 75 fsw, (I'd say 90) is suspect to you?

And that these gimmics and procedures are a sign of poor training?

And, what if you dive solo?
 
So, and I'm asking here, you're saying that any diver with a RAS, or that practices OOA/ESA procedures of any kind, above 75 fsw, (I'd say 90) is suspect to you?
No.

And, what if you dive solo?
Not germaine to this discussion.
 
NetDoc once bubbled...


quote:
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So, and I'm asking here, you're saying that any diver with a RAS, or that practices OOA/ESA procedures of any kind, above 75 fsw, (I'd say 90) is suspect to you?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No.


Then what does this mean?:

"Those that substitute equipment or gimmicks for training or who glom onto procedures that are questionable at best scare me."

"substitute"- Does that mean that my training must be lacking if I have a SA?
 
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