A Cert Card for everything, including how to tie your shoe...

[Darol]

P.A.D.I.= Put Another Dollar In

Me.. NASDS Basic "74"

PADI Open Water

PADI Advanced Open Water

Commercial Diver

Hardest class? NASDS Basic Scuba in 1974 in that class we did it all....

 

[Thalassamania]

...

As far as I can tell, from the POV of DCBC and Thal, I (and thousands of "instructors" (note the quotation marks)) have no business teaching people how to blow bubbles underwater (also note, I am not even suggesting that we have any business teaching people to Scuba Dive). I do not have the underwater experience (teaching or diving) that either of those two have -- nor will I ever.

I never said that. I never implied that. I do not believe in that. Experience is also not always the telling factor, I rather hope that the majority of instructors that I have trained are each better than I was at the time that I trained them.

As a result of my lack of experience, I do not believe I have the knowledge nor understanding to say "I know better than the people who have written this particular teaching program." While I understand the program (at least I think I understand it), I am not smart enough, nor experienced enough, to say "My student must be able to do 'X' in order to be a safe Scuba Diver."

I guess that is what goes to the heart of the matter. I do feel that I have the knowledge and understanding to make a much better judgment call for a specific student in a specific circumstance than someone who is removed in both time and space and is writing a generalized set of standards. I believe in "Divers hand build, one at a time, custom to who they are and what they need, but all to a virtually identical end point," so the details of what skill is included or what skill is missing is just that, a detail ... a detail that changes with each course and each student. I know that it runs counter to a well oiled legal mind to deal in such generalities, to consider the gestalt of a good diver, as opposed to a detailed checklist, but that's the way I am. I've had a couple of students who were in their younger days champion surfers, so beach entries get short shrift, similarly last year I had a student who was working on her PhD in nearshore processes, I really cut the lecture material on longshore transport and "rip" currents to the bone. But it is also a question of both depth and breath, while you are looking for a list of those items that keep the PADI course from having the breath that I am looking for, I am as much focused on the depth of knowledge and the depth of skill competence that should be displayed. While it might be a useful exercise to commit all that to paper, that is a project that is outside of our discussion here, you'll have to take it on faith (for the time being, at least) that I have, rather carefully calibrated my sights over the years as to what someone needs to do to be a safe diver (quotes intentionally not used).

As a result, I must rely on the set of standards that PADI (and by implication the RSTC) have set forth as the skill and knowledge set which a "typical Open Water Diver" needs to "master" in order to be a "safe diver."

I can still remember when I was in the same place that you are today. At that time I consciously set out to work with the best that there was out there, not the self-proclaimed and self-promoting in the recreational world, but rather those with the long track record of recognized expertise. That was how I initially calibrated my sights. I find it telling that my calibration was way higher than that of the recreational agencies, but then I did not factor in things like future market penetration.

Had I started doing this more-or-less full time 40 years ago, I might believe I know more than the people who "wrote my book" -- but I didn't and I don't. So Wayne, Thal -- go for it. Do your own thing. Even criticize us who have much less experience (both in the teaching world and in the diving world) for turning out poor divers (but please, only if you actually have seen them diving). We are just attempting to help some people get to enjoy the pleasure we have enjoyed and using a system that, when properly applied, WE BELIEVE gives those people a chance. It may not be the perfect system you have created, but, honestly, it ain't that bad.

You are right, I have never seen your students, or John's students or KP's, etc., so I tend to operate from what seem to be community norms. I read of incidents of divers "bolting," or being unable to clear their mask; I see videos of certified divers trailing their equipment so that they look like scraggly trees; I see students over-weighted, not just in the field, but in agency sponsored adds; I read posts about divers who can't work tables AND who have little or no idea of what their computer is telling them; and once or twice a year I have to pull a diver (sometimes a recreational student who is under instruction at the time) out of the surf before they drown and I compare that to what I have, over the years, come to see as a safe diver. It doesn't add up. Perhaps I am too hard on you, or John or KP, but perhaps you can understand why ... after all, you're all teaching to the same standards, the same floor and the same ceiling, in a highly standardized, one-size-fits all, completely consistent between all instructors world ... no?

Because I'm trying to figure out why Thal and DC have such "moral objections" to the PADI system, will they, or someone else who has the same or similar objections, please respond to the questions which are to follow:

[Background -- There are two kinds of "standards" that I, as a PADI Instructor, must evaluate: a. "Academic" knowledge; and b. Physical skills. I am no longer sure to what the "objectors" object -- "a" or "b" -- or maybe both?]

Thal or DC -- What academic knowledge do you believe is missing from the PADI standards such that it is a moral obligation for you to object to the PADI teaching methodology?

That is a compound question ... you should know better.

Thal or DC -- What physical skill do you believe is missing from the PADI standards such that it is a moral obligation for you to object to the PADI teaching methodology?

That is a compound question ... you should know better.

For what it's worth, to me an "open water diver" (i.e., someone who has been trained at the very basic level, WHATEVER level that may be) who is trained in Bonaire, Sydney, Seattle, Anchorage or Key West should know all the same academics and should have the same basic physical training. It is true they will have been trained in different environments but the only difference (as far as I know) relates to exposure protection. Mask clearing is mask clearing. Buoyancy control is buoyancy control. Site evaluation is site evaluation (you still have to ask yourself the same questions -- is this a safe place for me to dive and if I've never dived in any place like it before, then I need to get local knowledge). NDL calculation is NDL calculation (even if you have to correct for cold or altitude, both of which are discussed and are supposed to be known). Buddy skills are buddy skills. Air supply evaluation is air supply evaluation. Towing a tired diver is towing a tired diver.

For example:

• Mask clearing in the tropics without a hood is rather different (at least in terms of how highly the skill must be developed) than mask clearing in California in a thick wetsuit, with a thick hood and mitts, which is rather different than your neck of the woods with a dry hood and dry gloves.
• Site evaluation is very different on the open coast of California than it is on a boat in the tropics or on the shore in the tropics or in say, Puget Sound.

If I understand what has been written before, DC objects to the standards for two reasons -- the lack of sub-surface rescue AND what he perceives as a too lax "physicality" standard (to coin a phrase). I'm really not sure to what specific skill(s) Thal finds lacking.

So please, Thal and DC -- to what do you object? Not in the abstract (that is, that an Instructor can't impose "higher standards") but in the specific -- what is missing?

[I really plan on this being my ultimate post on this topic -- ever. This horse is not only dead, but the carcass has been incinerated!]

It is not that simple, a laundry list of what is missing in the breath would be nothing more than something to nitpick and argue about. The issue, for me, is as much about depth as it is breath as it is about filling individual potholes in each student's background, knowledge and skills.

 

[boulderjohn]

Mike described the extras that were put into his class necessary to complete the open water dive. I have described mine. Peter has described his. (In addition to what I described, I recently certified a diver in Cozumel, and we did the 4th dive as a drift dive, so he had to learn that skill as well.) These are the things we have to teach students in addition to the course basics, so that they can complete the dives in local conditions.

Thal and DCBC keep screaming that we are not allowed to fail students who can't complete those extras, even though even Thal admits it would be an almost impossible scenario for that to happen.

May I point out that if the student cannot do those extras, then the student cannot completethe OW dives. If the student cannot do the OW dives, then the student does not pass the course.

So, yes, the student does fail if the skills required to perform the local dives are not learned. The only complication would be if we were to select fundamentally unsafe local conditions.

 

[Thalassamania]

Mike described the extras that were put into his class necessary to complete the open water dive. I have described mine. Peter has described his. (In addition to what I described, I recently certified a diver in Cozumel, and we did the 4th dive as a drift dive, so he had to learn that skill as well.) These are the things we have to teach students in addition to the course basics, so that they can complete the dives in local conditions.

Thal and DCBC keep screaming that we are not allowed to fail students who can't complete those extras, even though even Thal admits it would be an almost impossible scenario for that to happen.

May I point out that if the student cannot do those extras, then the student cannot completethe OW dives. If the student cannot do the OW dives, then the student does not pass the course.

So, yes, the student does fail if the skills required to perform the local dives are not learned. The only complication would be if we were to select fundamentally unsafe local conditions.

You'll excuse me if I have a little trouble, at this late date, crediting information like this that comes in from left field. There was ample importunity to make such a simple declaration ages ago. Is this a new revelation from someone official? We have all been given to understand that items that failure to properly perform items are added to the official Open Water course can not be used as grounds to deny certification.

 

[boulderjohn]

You'll excuse me if I have a little trouble, at this late date, crediting information like this that comes in from left field. There was ample importunity to make such a simple declaration ages ago. Is this a new revelation from someone official? We have all been given to understand that items that failure to properly perform items are added to the official Open Water course can not be used as grounds to deny certification.

We've been beating our heads in trying to tell you that we have no trouble teaching people whatever they need to know to dive local conditions. We teach them what it takes to dive locally, as has been described over and over and over and over again, and they do it--usually.

We keep saying there is no problem with this, and you guys keep going into agony over the fact that we are not allowed to fail a student who can't master these points.

Then it just dawned on me that we ourselves have missed the key point. If they can't dive local conditions, they can't pass the course in local conditions, because they can't complete the OW dives. If they go to another site to complete the course, then they have learned under different local conditions.

The PADI standards are pretty clear--students must complete four OW dives and complete specific skills during those dives. If they don't, they don't pass. It's pretty simple, and there is nothing new. I had a student try to do his OW dives in very cold water the last weekend the local reservoir was open to us last fall. He didn't finish, and he decided to wait until things got warmer.

The reason it is just coming up now, I believe, is that we don't actually "fail" students and so were not thinking in those terms. It just dawned on me--Duh!. They just don't pass until they do it right. The student above just put completing his training on hold. Some might say he "failed" because he could not handle the local diving conditions. We just don't think of it that way.

 

[Thalassamania]

We've been beating our heads in trying to tell you that we have no trouble teaching people whatever they need to know to dive local conditions. We teach them what it takes to dive locally, as has been described over and over and over and over again, and they do it--usually.

We keep saying there is no problem with this, and you guys keep going into agony over the fact that we are not allowed to fail a student who can't master these points.

Then it just dawned on me that we ourselves have missed the key point. If they can't dive local conditions, they can't pass the course in local conditions, because they can't complete the OW dives. If they go to another site to complete the course, then they have learned under different local conditions.

The PADI standards are pretty clear--students must complete four OW dives and complete specific skills during those dives. If they don't, they don't pass. It's pretty simple, and there is nothing new. I had a student try to do his OW dives in very cold water the last weekend the local reservoir was open to us last fall. He didn't finish, and he decided to wait until things got warmer.

The reason it is just coming up now, I believe, is that we don't actually "fail" students and so were not thinking in those terms. It just dawned on me--Duh!. They just don't pass until they do it right. The student above just put completing his training on hold. Some might say he "failed" because he could not handle the local diving conditions. We just don't think of it that way.

For months the PADI experts on the board have been maintaining otherwise, and now you want to pull an Emily Litella?

 

[Mike Boswell]

By Jove, I think he's GOT it!!!


(The RAIN, in Spain falls main-ly on the Pla-aine...)

 

[DCBC]

But PADI makes the clear and unambiguous statement that...:

“Open Water Diver certification is a full entry level certification you earn by successfully completing the entire Open Water Diver course.

The PADI Open Water Diver certification qualifies you to:

Dive independently while applying the knowledge and skill you learn in
this course within the limits of your training and experience.

Plan, conduct and log open water no stop (no decompression) dives when equipped properly and accompanied by a buddy in conditions with which you have training and/or experience.

Are you saying that PADI standards are totally sufficient for a diver to dive in any waters in the world because PADI says so? Afterall, if you have to follow these standards without change and there are PADI Facilities worldwide, isn't that what your saying? You don't feel a need to change the diving training program because of local conditions?

 

[DCBC]

There are two kinds of "standards" that I, as a PADI Instructor, must evaluate: a. "Academic" knowledge; and b. Physical skills. I am no longer sure to what the "objectors" object -- "a" or "b" -- or maybe both?

Thal or DC -- What academic knowledge do you believe is missing from the PADI standards such that it is a moral obligation for you to object to the PADI teaching methodology?

Personally I believe that the program should be in greater depth (& breadth of knowledge), but I don't have any objection to what is presented for the warm clear water audience. I feel it should be mandatory in some areas (where applicable) to include altitude diving, tide tables and more on the diving environment (currents, dive site selection, gas consumption, etc.).

Thal or DC -- What physical skill do you believe is missing from the PADI standards such that it is a moral obligation for you to object to the PADI teaching methodology?

Watermanship ability is lacking (although what is specified is minimal for warm calm water). I don't believe that you can put a student into poor water conditions if s/he hasn't demonstrated an ability to swim without a swimming aid (FMS). This should be a requirement; as should basic rescue skills (as included within the training programs of other agencies). I also believe in buddy breathing, station breathing, blackout drills, bail-out and doff and don as excellent confidence builders, but not all of them are a requirement for all courses globally.

So please, Thal and DC -- to what do you object? Not in the abstract (that is, that an Instructor can't impose "higher standards") but in the specific -- what is missing?

Primarily the inability of the instructor to add material that he feels is required and the necessity to evaluate the student on the entire course curriculum. This may vary with local conditions and the individual teaching style / student audience. I also don't support the paint-by-numbers concept of teaching in a predetermined order (confined water 1, 2, etc.). This should be a guideline only.

Lets be clear, a PADI instructor can teach those things that are not specifically prohibited (like buddy breathing) to his students (like John has mentioned), which is great. The only problem is that the student doesn't need to learn anything outside of the minimal standards to be certified. It is not required by the certification agency. If someone thinks it is, quote the appropriate section which authorizes this.

I maintain that the instructor CANNOT ADD ANYTHING to the PADI curriculum for certification purposes. I interpret this to mean that anything beyond what's specified in the program is discouraged and is not important to the certification agency (regardless of how necessary or important it is to the instructor). If it was required, they would say so and either make it part of the standards, or allow the program to be modified while maintaining "minimum requirements."

As an example, the following is taken from the NAUI Risk Management Handbook:

"NAUI Instructors may exceed NAUI standards in ways that do not jeopardize student safety. Examples include exceeding the number of required open water dives or increasing the academic content. One of the things the NAUI Credo states is that it is more important to train a few students well than to certify many marginally trained divers. We further believe that educational quality must never be sacrificed for economic reasons. Also, that divers should not be totally dependent upon their equipment for their safety. NAUI members emphasize the skills of diving, and anyone certified as a diver should be able to perform the basics of a rescue of a buddy diver."

That about sums it up.

 

[Mike Boswell]

Are you saying that PADI standards are totally sufficient for a diver to dive in any waters in the world because PADI says so? Afterall, if you have to follow these standards without change and there are PADI Facilities worldwide, isn't that what your saying? You don't feel a need to change the diving training program because of local conditions?

Hi Wayne,

I am saying that PADI CERTIFIES you to dive in the conditions in which you are trained. And I am saying that PADI TRAINS you in the conditions that you do your checkout dives.

As I noted in post # 483:

In my PADI OW course there were a great many things that were added to the basic OW course. For example:

• Use of a 7-mil wetsuit,
• Walking in full gear (70-80 lbs) over 200 yards of sandy beach to get to the water,
• Surf entry,
• Foot-shuffling to scare off the stingrays,
• Donning fins in surf,
• Managing longshore and rip currents during entry,
• 400-yd surface swim w/snorkel to descent point,
• Surface location using landmarks,
• Diving the La Jolla canyon (wall dive),
• Using UW flashlight to find Sarcastic Fringeheads & other critters,
• Navigating using UW features (sand ripples and sand dollars),
• Performing swimming safety stop while returning to beach,
• How to deal with rip currents on exit,
• Exiting water through surf.

All OW divers in the class were required to learn and demonstrate all of those skills as part of the OW checkout dives. So:

Did we have to do all these things successfully to complete the checkout dives? Yes.

Did we have to complete the checkout dives for certification? Yes.

Were we certified to dive in the local conditions where we were trained? Yes.