A Cert Card for everything, including how to tie your shoe...

[DCBC]

...Nowadays, it's a recreational sport. Open Water certs have to accomodate people who have not had much experience in the water. In a couple of the modules I did, there were a couple people who literally couldn't swim. In one of the modules they test your swimming proficiency by making you swim 200 meters (or something), gear free. One guy sank like a rock. The other doggie paddled 50 meters and then clung to the edge in exhaustion.

Obviously, the instructors had no choice but to not continue these people forward in the course, but it's an example of just how casual this sport is viewed now.

Thanks for your perspective on this. Although there are some old grizzled divers here that learned under a far different system than people do today, many of us dive with "today's students" and some of us still teach them what's required to dive in our local environments.

Today, the students you've described, may not necessarily be turned away, but provided with fins, mask and a snorkel and asked to reattempt the watermanship requirement. I've seen people with little or no swimming ability certified as OW divers with the blessing of some training agencies that hold a pittiful standard.

The level to which a diver is required to be trained is dependent upon the area in-which s/he wishes to dive. This has been discussed in the previous conversation.

So with this in mind, and the Open Water cert structured to give people who have never even swam in the ocean or snorkled a chance to try Scuba diving, that means they have to focus on the basics. What good is boyancy skills, or knowing how to change the second stages on your reg, or going deep, if it takes somebody two modules to be comfortable clearing their mask?

It's not PADI's fault, it's how the general public views Scuba diving now. Is PADI (and the other agencies), supposed to turn them away?

OR,

Do they make the Open Water cert accessible to all (most) people, not just the naturally athletic and dedicated people? Sure you can keep Scuba difficult to enter by keeping the skills requirements high, but then Scuba suffers globally.

I would suggest that the most important thing is not "in what age" a diver learns to dive, but when he does learn, that he learns an ample amount to dive safely in the conditions present. Just because someone wants to learn isn't reason to certify him. The standard to which he is certified must be a reasonable one under the circumstances.

Courses like Peak Performance Boyancy, Dry-Suit, whatever else... aren't necessary for anything. It isn't a pre-requisite to go diving...

Some skills are required in some locations and not in others (I'm not sure if you would like to go diving in Atlantic Canada without a dry suit). As to Peak Performance Buoyancy, I guess this is a matter of what you consider peak? If the divers are rocketing to the surface and obviously have buoyancy difficulties, why certify them? It's a matter of degrees. What is reasonable in one instructor's mind, is extra training and another course for another. Not all instructors train their OW classes off the students knees.

 

[Scott]

Is ice diving about overhead environments or just diving in ice water? Sounds interesting. Too bad they don't teach all the cool classes in AZ. Can't even get a tech course around here, really.

[hijack] I know a few tech instructors in AZ, where are you located? If you're serious PM me and I'll send you an email address or two.[/hijack]

 

[DCBC]

Is ice diving about overhead environments or just diving in ice water?

I suppose the answer to your question involves what you're use to. In the winter time here, divers go ice diving in fresh water lakes because it's warmer than the ocean. For them it's all about learning to dive in an overhead environment. For a warm-water diver, they would first have to get past the shock of diving cold-water before taking an ice diving course.

There's nothing like playing hockey while standing upside down under the ice. Hey I'm Canadian, what can I say eh?

 

[Hawkwood]

Is ice diving about overhead environments or just diving in ice water? Sounds interesting. Too bad they don't teach all the cool classes in AZ. Can't even get a tech course around here, really.

Plan a winter vacation up north to Calgary in February or March - we can teach you ice diving then!

 

[Kingpatzer]

No, but then you've a lot of opinions and cocksurity for one who has produced how many divers on his own? Was the number zero?

So I'm deserving of your derision because I'm taking the time and care to seek out quality mentors and help me learn to produce divers I can be proud of?

Got it.

And I'd like to suggest that 2 years of working as DM, AI and Instructor with the number of students I've seen gives me some insight into how the world I'm part of works. Moreover, the vast majority of my comments have to do with standards and how I've learned they are to be interpreted working with Instructors who have some significant experience within PADI and other aspects of diving.

And this thread is like the Godfather .. everytime I try to walk away it drags me back in . . .

 

[DCBC]

King, for the record, I appreciate the way you're approaching diving instruction. You seem to be the type of instructor that would strengthen any diving organization. With respect, I hope you learn more about what each agency provides and offers to the student. Be well.

Wayne

 

[Slamfire]

Nowadays, it's a recreational sport. Open Water certs have to accomodate people who have not had much experience in the water...

...So with this in mind, and the Open Water cert structured to give people who have never even swam in the ocean or snorkled a chance to try Scuba diving, that means they have to focus on the basics. What good is boyancy skills, or knowing how to change the second stages on your reg, or going deep, if it takes somebody two modules to be comfortable clearing their mask?

It's not PADI's fault, it's how the general public views Scuba diving now. Is PADI (and the other agencies), supposed to turn them away?
...The kind of people I illustrated above don't need to worry about these kind of things until they actually manage to get through Open Water and prove that they can at least not die when they go under water. Then they can worry about improving the single skills they need to work on.

First of all, welcome to the forum. We should go out diving one of these days.

I realize that new OW divers are not dying all around us, but I also believe that lax training/preparation practices do contribute significantly in incidents. Last weekend a woman in Whytecliff ended up in critical condition because "The information that I have heard is that the diver ran out of air, and while air sharing to the surface, spat the reg out and sank back down to the bottom. Not sure why, possibly panic." The buddy actually surfaced and enlisted the help of other divers to find her. Other divers found her and managed to get her breathing again. I wasn't there and don't know the details so the following comments may be unfair. That said, I can't help but ask, as a donating buddy, how is it that you lose the diver that you are assisting? I can't help but wonder if proper training in the rescue of an unconcious/toxing diver would have prevented this situation.

Then you hear about cases where divers got bent because their ascent profile was not adequate for the dive they did since they where in a bit of a rush to run away from the evil NDL that's about to catch up with them. They were in perfect compliance of the ascent protocol they were taught. They were honestly thinking this rushy ascent was safer than allowing the NDL to catch up by just a few mins and get rid of the deco obligation during a slow proper ascent. If they had a basic proper knowledge of decompression theory and adequate protocols, they would have been able to avoid "the undeserved hit".

Then you hear about people being told that diving is now safer than bowling, that there is nothing to fear. And in this context there is a purposeful avoidance of any mention of panic and panic management. When these divers encounter a stressful situation that could be perfectly manageable, they succumb to panic because this is not supposed to happen and they do not know what else to do.

I don't want this to read like a PADI bashing diatribe. There are perfectly capable instructors within PADI that certify perfectly capable divers. And as I said before, newly minted OW divers are not dying by the dozens. But when agencies (not just PADI) lax the standards so much, a lot of wiggle room is left behind and some get hurt. My advice to new divers would be to become a thinking diver. Question what you were taught. Understand why it is -- or is not -- the best way for you to do things. There is so much to be learned beyond the formal channels of today's lax scuba education. And all the learning you can do is only going to be to your benefit.

Sure you can keep Scuba difficult to enter by keeping the skills requirements high, but then Scuba suffers globally.

What does "scuba suffers globally" actually mean? Does it mean that instead of having 7 dive shops around Vancouver there's only going to be 2? Will the "suffering scuba" prevent dedicated divers from diving? I don't really think it will. Throughout my whole diving life I have not been very dependent on dive shops. I cannot say I have not benefited from them; I definitely have. But my point is that even if the whole formal scuba industry collapses, that still would not keep me from diving -- my diving does not depend on it.

Sorry for the monster post.

No need to apologize. I actually found it well written and it does bring forth some valid points.

 

[DCBC]

...but I also believe that lax training/preparation practices do contribute significantly in incidents... I don't want this to read like a PADI bashing diatribe.

Nor do I, but facts are facts. There is only one agency (of which I'm aware) that doesn't require underwater rescue to be certified as an OW diver. Just saying.

 

[boulderjohn]

Is ice diving about overhead environments or just diving in ice water? Sounds interesting. Too bad they don't teach all the cool classes in AZ. Can't even get a tech course around here, really.

In many cases, it really can be a problem getting such classes, and it can be really expensive. I live in Boulder, which is north of central Colorado. Our group of tech divers just spent a weekend practicing and training in our customary sink hole on the prairie of New Mexico. Those who were there for instruction were from Durango, CO (almost in Arizona), northern Colorado, New Mexico, Amarillo Texas, and Houston, Texas. (Yes, the guy from Houston drove to New Mexico for the diving, and that was after he had previously driven to Boulder, CO for his pool sessions.)

I myself am in a training holding patter. I am at the highest level available to me locally (if you call that local). I cannot continue training locally even with a qualified instructor because I don't have a teammate at my level with which to train, which is a requirement. If I want to go to the next level of my training, I will have to travel roughly 1500 miles (guessing) for an extended period of time, bringing a huge amount of gear with me. I will need to find a teammate at my training level somewhere in the nation who wants to do the training with me at the same time.

What does this have to do with the thread?

The ready availability of instructors who are willing to teach you a course you want to take when you want to take it is a real plus, and you won't realize it until you don't have it.

 

[stratdax]

Some skills are required in some locations and not in others (I'm not sure if you would like to go diving in Atlantic Canada without a dry suit). As to Peak Performance Buoyancy, I guess this is a matter of what you consider peak? If the divers are rocketing to the surface and obviously have buoyancy difficulties, why certify them? It's a matter of degrees. What is reasonable in one instructor's mind, is extra training and another course for another. Not all instructors train their OW classes off the students knees.

I agree with your post - I would suggest that it's the lax standards of whatever shop is doing the certifying, rather than PADI's standards, that puts people who aren't proficient divers into the water. Short of having a PADI headquarters representative at each shop as they do the classes, there's not much that can be done, unfortunately.

As for the dry suit example - no, you probably wouldn't want to go diving in Atlantic Canada without one - hahaha. However, you don't need a dry suit cert to get a dry suit and go diving with it. PADI offers a dry suit class, yes, but it's an option for people who want instruction on how to use it, rather that reading and figuring it out themselves. Some people can intuitively know how to use it, others need a class. (This is more of a response to the OP complaining about having certs for everything).

What does "scuba suffers globally" actually mean? Does it mean that instead of having 7 dive shops around Vancouver there's only going to be 2? Will the "suffering scuba" prevent dedicated divers from diving? I don't really think it will. Throughout my whole diving life I have not been very dependent on dive shops. I cannot say I have not benefited from them; I definitely have. But my point is that even if the whole formal scuba industry collapses, that still would not keep me from diving -- my diving does not depend on it.

I was thinking more along the lines of dive trips, boats, infrastructure, R&D and affordability (if there are only a tiny amount of people in a sport, companies won't put much money into advancing the technology, or if they do, it would be exorbitantly expensive), etc.

Generally, I agree with what you're saying. Unfortunately, as with the Whytecliff example, all the training in the world won't necessarily stop somebody from panicking and making dumb decision when put into the real world.

You're right - a thinking, questioning person is always better, in ANY field, not just diving.

I want to bring it back to the OP - having a cert card for everything is an option. There's nothing stopping somebody from simply buying their own gear and going diving without a day of instruction in their life. But offering classes to enhance somebody's knowledge of a particular subset is never a bad thing.

You can get your driver's license just by proving, basically, that you can control the car. But Porsche and BMW still offers driving schools to further refine and master your car - that's how I view the optional certs.


Edit: I'm not arguing for or against anything in particular. Yes, there is enough wiggle room in the PADI certs for a lax shop to certify people who shouldn't necessarily be certified. However, in general, from what I saw of PADI, as long as you're a competant, concious, thinking person, you should be able to get the skills and knowledge out of the Open Water where you'll be comfortable diving. Unfortunately, that sometimes is too much to ask of people.