A Concerned Diver.

[concernediver]

Some background Info: I am a OW diver certified by PADI a few years ago with a few dozen dives, all in cold water [39F-55F typically], almost always lower visibility. In my opinion I'm a responsible diver, and I have common sense.

I've become rather concerned at some of my peers actions and I need some advice.

We have a SCUBA club at my university, and some of the actions that the members do scare me. There's really two or three people that have most of my concern.

The first person is a brand new diver. He was certified less than 3 months ago through PADI. On one of first few dives after his initial cert dives, he decides to go down to 80' and then 70' for his two dives. I love that he has has acclimated well to the underwater world, but this seems blatantly irresponsible. He's the arrogant type too, which just pisses me off even more. I understand he wants to do more exciting things, but diving down that deep with almost no dives seems stupid. And like most typical people, he's the rely-on-the computer-what-tables-type of diver. And lately he dove to 100ft and did a wreck dive. Was a tourist type wreck, yes, but still, from what I can tell, it 20' from one side of the wreck to the other. Am I just being nervous nancy for being concerned, or what?


The second person is more of an issue. Because we dive as a club, we usually dive as a group, which in my opinion is stupid. We have done dives with ranging groups of 3 people to 8 people. EIGHT PEOPLE. All under one flag, in crap vis. Was it only in 35' feet, yes. This is another adventurous person that I need to watch my back. During a recent dive, it was 6 of us. Him and another guy left us after I stopped with the other 4 people after a person cramped. Those two kept going and after waiting for 2 minutes, we surfaced. They didn't surface for another 3-4 minutes after us, and they surfaced quite a distance away from us. They probably didn't even notice! He likes his gear, and his only, and doesn't like other people's opinions. Especially when talking about long hose/short backup setups, too bulky as he said. He likes his air2! I really don't feel safe diving with anybody from the club as I can't trust any of them. None of them really care about safe diving, but rather just the fun and experience. Do they log dives and do all the math, yes, but they are again, screw the tables, rely on the computer types. Should I completely stop diving with the group, or what? Also, if I don't dive with them, I have no opportunities to dive unless I can find a better buddy.

Can somebody give me advice.

 

[rollerboi]

Where's "up north"? Chances are there are other groups in your area that you may feel more comfortable diving with. Not to mention other scubaboarders who would love to go on a dive with you.

 

[ekremer]

assuming this isn't all tongue and cheek.

you sound like you are jealous that you don't have a computer, or an air 2 You say that diving a computer is unsafe, because they just follow along. But don't you just follow along on the tables? Do you understand how the tables are created? Do you really understand the physics and math behind them?

Why do you think an air2 is unsafe? because the vocal people on this board don't like them? just because he doesn't dive your way doesn't mean its wrong.

but hey if you feel uncomfortable diving with this group, then don't. Your safety is your own, and you feel unsafe with a buddy then don't dive with them, but I think you are taking this a bit to seriously.

As for wandering away from the flag, They had buddies and you had buddies, was this really a dangerous situation? Doesn't sound it to me. I think you are working up way to much about it though.

 

[concernediver]

Can't say. I think these people I am referencing are members here.

I can probably find others to dive with, busy area.

 

[concernediver]

assuming this isn't all tongue and cheek.

you sound like you are jealous that you don't have a computer, or an air 2 You say that diving a computer is unsafe, because they just follow along. But don't you just follow along on the tables? Do you understand how the tables are created? Do you really understand the physics and math behind them?

Why do you think an air2 is unsafe? because the vocal people on this board don't like them? just because he doesn't dive your way doesn't mean its wrong.

but hey if you feel uncomfortable diving with this group, then don't. Your safety is your own, and you feel unsafe with a buddy then don't dive with them, but I think you are taking this a bit to seriously.

As for wandering away from the flag, They had buddies and you had buddies, was this really a dangerous situation? Doesn't sound it to me. I think you are working up way to much about it though.

I own a computer, but I also know how to use the tables. The concept of air2 is great, but cluster-humping to get to his primary would make me have to practically hug him. I have a decent knowledge of gas theory, not 10% of a tec diver, but enough.

It's not that I don't agree with his way of diving, it's just that it places people in unnecessary jeopardy. He could have left us behind in 30' or 70' and if it was the latter, it would have been worse.

Unfortunately the relaxed way they dive is basically, dive in a group, that's it. I try to grab a buddy, but usually it ends up being just stay with the group and don't fall behind.

 

[ekremer]

Then it sounds like not your way of diving, and I would find another group.

 

[Krenath]

Your first diver sounds like he needs for his training to catch up to his ego and quick.

I can't see what's wrong with your second example. You said you think that diving as a big group is stupid. Sounds like the diver you were complaining about was diving with a buddy in a typical pair.

As far as the gear setup, you sound to be just as arrogant as you say he is. He doesn't like your preferred setup and you don't like his. Who is really right here? As long as you know how to use his gear properly in an emergency and he knows how to use yours, shouldn't that be enough?

You seem to assume that an Air2 setup is atuomatically and obviously inferior, but if that were true, why do they exist and why do so many divers like them?

 

[fjpatrum]

I have no dives under my belt except my cert dives so take my comments as what you paid for them.

Seems to me like you have two choices. First, you can let the "hot shots" be themselves or you can find a different club or dive buddy.

Everyone has different limits and capabilities. Many, probably most, of us test our own limits until we make a mistake. Going deeper may not be a problem at all for your first diver and so far he's been successful. Success emboldens us, especially those of us who are already confident (or perhaps overconfident). I wouldn't do it, but I'm older and less likely to push my limits than I was at 20 years old. He's clearly capable of doing these dives if nothing goes wrong. He may be capable of doing them if something does go wrong. The only way of knowing is to do the dives and have something go wrong. Until then, it's all speculation either way.

Your second situation/person doesn't seem like a problem at all to me. Neither diver seems to have been "solo" and deliberately leaving anyone behind. You said vis was crap and that two divers continued while four remained. You said they surfaced only a few minutes later than the rest of you but were a distance away. I'd suggest they figured they were still "with buddy" and thought you'd regroup but then when you didn't they surfaced. Distance is understandable, especially if they took a minute to realize you weren't still all together and then took some time to look around for you.

You have the option of talking to these people, but taking only from what you've said, your attitude is just as problematic as theirs is. Your post implies some envy/jealousy, whether intentional or not, that skews your perception of their motivations for diving and their level of safety consciousness. You sound like you're upset because you can't change them to your way of thinking.

There's nothing inherently unsafe about following a dive computer over charts. We weren't even taught charts in my class except to explain "hey this is a chart, depth is here, time is here, you'll never use them everyone uses computers nowadays". My PADI class materials came with a little eDRP computer and absolutely no charts whatsoever. There is similarly nothing wrong with using an air2 over an octopus and a lot of divers apparently like them. As for long hose versus short hose, again, that's personal preference and it's very rare to change someone's opinion until they're directly in a situation to see the benefits of both side by side and do a comparison.

People tend to like their own gear, especially if they spent a lot of money for it and they're still relatively new to it and the activity. This is the same for all activities. It takes time and experience to learn what's good and bad about each piece of gear.

You're fighting the battle of inexperience on top of the hubris of youth (assuming they're all university age people) so if they're unwilling, or you're unwilling, to have discussions about pros and cons of different dive objectives, and safety options, find different people with whom to dive.

I can't say what's a safe number of divers under one flag, because I simply don't have the experience to know that. I can say, bringing it up as a group, before your dives, and making clear plans is the best way to fix that issue. You can always provide a second flag if you feel you need more. From what it sounds like, the dives have generally gone according to what I would see as safe, when you split up you all surfaced, even if at separate times and locations (which seems reasonable to me) and you've had at least some sort of discussions about safety and gear. It takes time to sort through people you want to continue doing an activity with and those you don't. You're doing that, but from my perspective as a very active person in other "life & death" sports who's new to diving, your concerns are out of proportion with the situations you've described.

 

[concernediver]

Your first diver sounds like he needs for his training to catch up to his ego and quick.

I can't see what's wrong with your second example. You said you think that diving as a big group is stupid. Sounds like the diver you were complaining about was diving with a buddy in a typical pair.

As far as the gear setup, you sound to be just as arrogant as you say he is. He doesn't like your preferred setup and you don't like his. Who is really right here? As long as you know how to use his gear properly in an emergency and he knows how to use yours, shouldn't that be enough?

You seem to assume that an Air2 setup is atuomatically and obviously inferior, but if that were true, why do they exist and why do so many divers like them?

Those two that left weren't paying attention. They weren't a pair, but rather just the two who left us behind without looking. Too busy looking for the next exciting thing to look at.

I dive the basic reg, octo under the right arm setup right now. I was merely discussing different setups and he shot em down and was like air2 is streamlined, game over, bye.

I have no issue with air2. Maybe his primary is really short, but it seems to be so short I'd have to hug him to breath from his primary.

 

[nikos81]

The second person is more of an issue. Because we dive as a club, we usually dive as a group, which in my opinion is stupid. We have done dives with ranging groups of 3 people to 8 people. EIGHT PEOPLE.

Why is it a stupid thing? I don't really think it is stupid. On the contrary, them worse the visibility, the better it is to have more than your buddy to help you in case you need it. Ok you don't have to be very close to the other couples, but in case you get lost together ith your buudy, isn't it better to have smn else to bring you back to the "straight line"?

As for the other safety reasons you are reffering to, if you don't feel safe with the guys you dive then just change them. Fortunately,there are thousands of divers allo ver the world,so you can surely find lots of people to enjoy our favourite sport