accident rate without supervisors

[CuriousMe]

gedunk once bubbled...
How good is the Dm? And how comfortable is the diver at 40 or 50 feet? If the DM is good and the diver is comfortable at shallower depths is see no problem with one on one guided tours to 80 or 90 feet. A good DM will recognize increased anxiety and stress and take the dive shallower if needed. One DM trying to do this with two or more divers can be a accident waiting to happen IMO.

With that said, IME, i would trust less than 50% of the DM's i've seen in the carribean with people i care about. Many seem to be less than attentive IMO.

There are quite a few operators I just won't dive with on various islands in the Caribbean. I've seen to many times when there's a diver who certified last week in a quary, and they're brought on an 80-90 foot drift wall dive, with swim throughs. These folks aren't comfortable, they're terrified! But they assume that since the DM is letting them do it, it must be safe.

My $.02

Peace,
Cathie

 

[Crispy]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
I just read a post about an accident in Bonair. A link that was posted to a related chat site had several instructors and DM'S talking about the trouble they have keeping divers in line. I have also witnessed my share of left field antics by divers who know it all. Some resulted in injury, some near misses and others were allowed to slide for a while. Anyway I got thinking and thought I would ask the board a question. What would the safety record be like in recreational diving without all the instructors and DM's that directly or indirectly supervise so much of the diving that is conducted?

It's only an accident if they actually live, otherwise it's a tragedy (sometimes)

Thank you, to all Diving Pros you do make it a safer endevour for the rest of us.
- Crispy

 

[o2scuba]

ckharlan66 once bubbled...


They are probably OK while with the DM. The biggest problem is when they get back to a quarry or lake and say to themselves that they have been that deep before and if it was dangerous the DM wouldn't have taken them there so it must be no big deal.

As has been pointed out many times before 100 ft in the clear warm water is different than 100 ft in a cold quarry.

Chad

Excellent point. If that DM practiced what he/she preaches, they would not be taking these divers to depths beeyond their level of training and experience. Thus divers would not get that false sense of security.

DMs are guides with higher rescue skills. Divers are responsible for themselves. These new divers need to be aware of where and when they should be diving. There will always be DMs (even instructors for that matter) who are willing to take divers beyond where they should be.

While it is wise to be accompanied by a DM as a new diver, one must be careful of becoming "dependant" on dive pro's. Pretty soon divers are skipping pre-dive safety checks with the atitude that "if somethings wrong, th DM will notice and tell me"

The idea is to gain experience and practice under supervision. Rather than "blindly" following the DM, divers need to watch their own depth, air supply, buddy and yes, practice using that compass that is on your console!!

The idea that you are OK going somewhere beyond your level of training, simply because you are accompanied by a dive pro is an invitation for trouble.

I've noticed a lot of positive comments about diving with DMs and Instructors. Dive pros are good role models and need to remember to behave as they would have their students behave.

So for you guys and gals who appreciate our efforts, many thanks.

It is nice to hear.

Just remember us when you walk by the "tip jar"

 

[Hamster]

Certainly there are some very good DMs out there but some are nothing but 60 dive wonders.

Some DMs are excellent but others should restrict their diving to the shallow end of their local pool.

 

[Big-t-2538]

o2scuba once bubbled...


The idea is to gain experience and practice under supervision. Rather than "blindly" following the DM, divers need to watch their own depth, air supply, buddy and yes, practice using that compass that is on your console!!

The idea that you are OK going somewhere beyond your level of training, simply because you are accompanied by a dive pro is an invitation for trouble.

first off, let me agree with the statement that the leader / DM should be aware of his / her dvier's level of training and comfort. And that they should adjust a dive accordingly, there's really no reason not to.

Second...there's a compase? what's that....here in OH, we dive quarries...I know that the plane at gilboa is just to the left of dock #4, and that if I'm by the VW bus, I'm pretty much in the dead center of the shallow side. Sam deals at Whitestar, Portage, France Lake, etc. You ocean divers....can't you just "dead rekon" your way back to the boat....though it is kind of comical to watch someone who never uses their compase try to go somewhere with it.

 

[o2scuba]

gedunk once bubbled...
How good is the Dm? And how comfortable is the diver at 40 or 50 feet? If the DM is good and the diver is comfortable at shallower depths is see no problem with one on one guided tours to 80 or 90 feet. A good DM will recognize increased anxiety and stress and take the dive shallower if needed. One DM trying to do this with two or more divers can be a accident waiting to happen IMO.





Although DMs have been introduced to some of these problem solving skills, they are not instructors. Even so, DM or Instructor, there are safety standards. PADI, for example, could potentially suspend or expell a DM or Instructor for taking any diver to a location beyond their level of experience (new or not).

I've seen instructors take "resort Course" divers into shipwrecks! At 60-70 feet! Resort programs are max 40 and no overhead invironments.

In any case, this will continue as long as it is allowed to happen. PLEASE, report these standard violations to PADI, NAUI, SSI or the appropriate agency. All it takes is a quick email. By the same token, drop PADI an email when you feel you have had a great dm or instructor.




"With that said, IME, i would trust less than 50% of the DM's i've seen in the carribean with people i care about. Many seem to be less than attentive IMO.

"



There are many, many qualified DMs and Instructors out there who work very hard to follow standards, strive to improve themelves and take their work seriously. Unfortunately in the last ten years or so, many training facilities have been cranking out Dms and Instructors. Someone mentioned those "60 dive wonders". This creates a number of problems:

First, the obvious, someone with such limited experience is not capable of producing the quality experience or safety level as a seasoned DM or Instructor.

Second, the rush of new dive pros creates an "employers market" . It drives pay scales down. There's always some "newbie" willing to work for peanuts. Therefore the quality instructors, who you all like to work with, are not getting the jobs.


Please don't single out the Caribbean. That is simply demographics. Kind of like saying people in New York City are worse drivers because there are more accidents there than in Cowpie Iowa.

DMs and Instructors are no different than plumbers or electricians-simply being "certified" or "licensed" does not automaticly make them good. One should take the time to check references and qualifications in the same way you would when you hire a craftsman (even more so as your safety is at stake). There are no SCUBA police out there insuring quality. PADI (or any agency) does care about Quality Assurance, however they can't do anything about it unless they know.

It is nice to share thoughts in this forum. If you want to help prevent the decline of quality among dive pros, let the training agencies know!!

 

[MikeFerrara]

As informed as consumers can be in this age of information they are no wiser than they were in the dark ages.

As an instructor and diveshop owner the only questions anyone ever asks is how much money and how much time. Never has sonmeone aske about my qualifications of the qualifications of my DM's. Never has someone asked how many divers I have killed in the last year.

What can be said about a parant shoping for a family class who only asks about price and scheduling?