Advanced Open Water Disappointment

[BlueTrin]

I know this is a SB truism but there is a reason why it's better to let (some) people kneel early. When the student has below average talent, it's too much task load early on and is aksing too much in the pool. That can cause them to get frustrated and do worse. Especially when they are in a group of 3 or 4 people and they see that other people are doing much better. Letting them do stuff like the mask off skill kneeling in the pool and OW 1 lets them learn in smaller steps. Once they feel they're doing ok with the skills you can let them hoover or be on their fin tips in OW 3 and 4 for the skills. The OW class is not for the instructors ego but for the student to learn basic skills in small steps. OWD cert is a licence to learn.
If you have a good students, you can let them hoover in the pool, but it would be much sense to make it a rule.

I am sure you know this and it’s trivial for you, but at one of my previous clubs an instructor use to make people kit up and go in the shallow end of the pool first.

In there, you would naturally move in horizontal trim since it’s shallow.

He would do the weight check for them and once they got more confident he would make them swim around in the deeper part of the pool.

Aside from people with phobias and other issues, pretty much every try dive ended up with people swimming in trim and looking quite comfortable in water.

I don’t have your experience so I trust you that some people may need to be taught in knee to overcome some issues, but then it would be the exception.

I like to think that when people criticise people teaching on knees they are not criticising that exception but talking about the fact that a few shops will take 4 people set them on knees and try to get them through all skills as quickly as possible.

 

[berndo]

In summary, in my considerable experience with this, learning initial skills while neutrally buoyant and horizontal is easier for students than learning on the knees.

And what in that experience in numbers?

It's easy with talented students. Some students need a lot of work to get comfortable without the mask. Going from kneeling in the pool to hoovering in OW 2 or 3 works just fine for pretty much every student as it increases difficulty and taskload incrementally.
I've only done about 3 years of full time work as an instructor, that's my experience level (plus weekend stuff before and after), and this approach gives good results when you have 3.5 days form start to finish.
If you're in a club environment or doing weekend classes with locals you might have a time to do 5 pool sessions. I'm taking real life, practical approach of actually working at a shop with 3-4 stundents on average at a time in a vacation destination where most training is done.

 

[boulderjohn]

I like to think that when people criticise people teaching on knees they are not criticising that exception but talking about the fact that a few shops will take 4 people set them on knees and try to get them through all skills as quickly as possible.

Because students are learning from the very start to adjust to being neutrally buoyant and to using their lungs to fine tune their buoyancy, the later skills being taught, especially when you are supposedly learning buoyancy, become very easy. Consequently it can actually take less time to teach a class with student neutrally buoyant than with students overweighted and kneeling.

 

[boulderjohn]

And what in that experience in numbers?

I am pretty sure my experience teaching students who are neutrally buoyant from the start dwarfs yours by a considerable margin.

 

[berndo]

What difference could that possibly make?

Because when you just do weekend classes with a couple of students at a time it takes forever to build any meaningful amount of experience and to see what works well and what doesn't.
I worked a a few large dive shops and the 'temp' instructors usually weren't that great but brought big know it all egos but little experience. Those were usually weekend instructors comming to work for a 1 or 2 at a time.
Strange that you would ask that? Didn't you used to own CCDS?

 

[boulderjohn]

Here is a story I have told before. I think it is a perfect illustration.

I was diving with two friends in Akumal, Mexico, where the dives are all one tank boat dives taking short trips out to the reef. We did the morning dive with a dive master who had not been with us on our previous days of diving. After that dive, he said to us that we were the only ones signed up for the next dive, and he wanted to take us to a site more fitting our experience level. We happily agreed.

Unfortunately, another couple signed up for the next dive. When we got to the site, it was clear they did not have the necessary buoyancy skills to do the dives. He had wanted to do swim throughs and canyons, but their skills were simply not up to the task, and we swam over the top of the reef throughout the dive.

Back on shore the DM apologized to us. He said the couple did not have the necessary skills to do the dives because they only had about 25 dives and did not have the great experience that we obviously had. I pointed to my two friends and told him that I had just certified them the day before. The two dives he had done with us were their first two dives as certified divers.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I don't think any of us who teaches fully neutrally buoyant and trimmed starts throwing skills at our students.

It's a garduall process getting students comfortable in the water. Yes this is upfront overhead but all the skills that follow take less time.

The idea of getting through skills as possible makes me shake my head The point is to get students to master skills at an appropriate level in as short of time so that remaining pool time can be used to strengthen overall dive skills and bring everything together.

 

[The Chairman]

Have you ever actually worked as dive instructor have you only done weekend class with a couple of people at a time?

What a disingenuous comment! I worked for a few dive shops over the years, even some big ones.

There's no skill that needs to done kneeling. Once a skill is learned while kneeling, a student almost always kneels to do it. I don't see any downsides to teaching all skills while neutral, unless you're incapable of doing it yourself.

I'm not blaming the student.

Sure you are. It's OK. Instructors who teach their students to kneel make me look good! Twice I've had instructors mistake my classes for being cavern classes. I lost count at the number of instructors ask me if I'm teaching an advanced class on buoyancy. What I do is not that hard. Anyone can do it, but only if they make the decision to. Most instructors are better at making excuses why it can't work.

I'm the instructor. I'm in charge of my class. I set the expectations for my class, and the foundation of that is trim and neutral buoyancy. I set the example, and in monkey see, monkey do fashion, my students embrace it. If you can't do it, that's OK. I can. Teach however you want: I teach to a more neutral standard. By all the frowny faces you're putting on my posts, this obviously offends you. Sry, not sry.

it takes forever to build any meaningful amount of experience and to see what works well and what doesn't.

I used to teach bigger classes. Then I dropped to 4 max but I always preferred 2.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Didn't you used to own CCDS?

I did own CCDS and also Florida Keys Reef-Divers in Cudjoe Key.

 

[berndo]

I am pretty sure my experience teaching students who are neutrally buoyant from the start dwarfs yours by a considerable margin.

Why don't you wanna say what your considerable experience? All my students dove neutrally bouyant. I explained how. Not that hard to understand...

I worked for a few dive shops over the years, even some big ones.

What does that mean? Did you work full time, once a month for a weekend? Why weasel your way out of a direct question?

There's no skill that needs to done kneeling.

I never said that... what it is with you guys? Are you evanding questions on purpose or are actually too dumb to read.

By all the frowny faces you're putting on my posts, this obviously offends you.

What 'offends' me that you're arguning in bad faith. I laid out my reasoning and you accuse me of 'blaming' the student.