"Allowed" to dive

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meagicano

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Location
Ontario, Canada
I just had a pleasant evening turn into a rather annoying disagreement with a PADI DM who has dove and worked in several Latin American countries and New Zealand. At home, he DMs in Canada.

Basically - he told me that as an AOW it wasn't "legal" for me to dive without DM supervision and that many places would refuse to rent me gear without either supervision or a DM cert.

Yes - he used the term "legal". I was further told that other qualifications are useless (I don't see myself progressing much further in PADI but I want to take courses elsewhere).

Oh. Also - apparently AOW certifies you for overhead (he talked about a guy freaking out in a "cave" in Nicaragua) because of the wreck dive.

So I'm a bit annoyed and slightly tipsy and I'm wondering if anything - anything at all - is true. I suspect he's a DM with a bit of a god complex (there was some bragging involved) but who knows. Maybe I'm being obstinate.

So, ScubaBoard.... Educate me.
 
Huh...a C card is a C card, as far as I know. I'm NAUI Openwater certified since '81 and no one has ever turned me away.
 
I'm thinking you can ignore everything he said. You can rent gear, fill air, and go diving without a DM or instructor. I also probably wouldn't go diving with him. I think egos can be pretty dangerous underwater.
 
You probably misunderstood this DM.
In Austria there is no law that forbids diving without any certification,
France has very strict laws who is allowed to dive how deep depending on certification and requires every recreational diver to be accompanied by another diver.
Croatia requires an individual license (subject to charges) for every diver who does not dive with a registered dive-center.
As you can see, legal requirements vary.
Additionally as soon as you board a vessel to dive the captains rules apply.
AOWD does not qualify you for overhead environments e.g. cave diving. But I am sure you know that.
 
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Being in Canada potentially he is referring to the CMAS/FFFESSM system.

In civilised countries however, as soon as you're certified as an OW diver, you're 'legal' to dive. Some shops may refuse to give you access to certain sites based on experience (this is good)- others are more interested only in the 'plastic card' as they think that relieves them of responsibility and liability (this is bad).

Some countries (Maldives included) require an in-water DM- however usually provisions allow for 'unguided' divers based on experience.

All in all, your initial appraisal of the DM sounds about right though.
 
I just had a pleasant evening turn into a rather annoying disagreement with a PADI DM who has dove and worked in several Latin American countries and New Zealand. At home, he DMs in Canada.

Basically - he told me that as an AOW it wasn't "legal" for me to dive without DM supervision and that many places would refuse to rent me gear without either supervision or a DM cert.

Yes - he used the term "legal". I was further told that other qualifications are useless (I don't see myself progressing much further in PADI but I want to take courses elsewhere).

Oh. Also - apparently AOW certifies you for overhead (he talked about a guy freaking out in a "cave" in Nicaragua) because of the wreck dive.

So I'm a bit annoyed and slightly tipsy and I'm wondering if anything - anything at all - is true. I suspect he's a DM with a bit of a god complex (there was some bragging involved) but who knows. Maybe I'm being obstinate.

So, ScubaBoard.... Educate me.

In some countries there is a strict requirement to dive with a registered local guide regardless of your certification level. Turkey is one example of this. The law was implemented in order to stem the wholesale plundering of artifacts from dive sites. Greece used to to this as well but I'm not sure if they still do.

I also know that in some countries like Spain and Belize that you're not permitted to dive in marine reserves without a local guide, again, regardless of your certification level. I suspect that many countries have certain marine reserves that are tightly controlled, not only for protecting the underwater fauna but in order to create and maintain a source of jobs for locals. For example again, in Belize you're not even able to become a dive guide there unless you are a citizen. None of this has anything to do with your skill as a diver or the quality of your certification. It's just business. It's good to make this point clearly, it's not "illegal" in many cases but it can be "made impossible" by local operators who are defending their turf.

As for not being able to rent gear etc. It's possible that some shops or in some places that you will have trouble with it. Again, not because of your certification but due to local dive operators protecting their business. The only exception that I can think of to this are some places in France where you may have trouble renting gear with a PADI certification due to a high degree of chauvinism regarding the alleged superiority of the local French certifying authority. It's not as bad now as it was in say 2000 but the French think they invented diving and PADI had a lot of trouble getting much of a beachhead in France for a while. Diving with a guide may be the path of least resistance in such cases.

There are also some areas that are "off limits" to divers for safety reasons. The entrances and areas around harbors, close to some dams, in shipping lanes, private property, protected wrecks, marine reserves, fish/mussel farms, etc etc. While it's generally true that you are allowed to dive independently with a buddy, the point here is that you still may not be able to dive in a given location due to local laws/regulations that have been passed for your own protection.

Finally, the AOW certification does not include protocols for diving in overheads. However, many guides do distinguish between "swim throughs" and "overheads" and a lot of dive guides to take people into caverns, cenotes, lava/coral tunnels, wrecks, etc. This can be a lot of fun but there are obviously risks involved. There are no scuba police who will stop you from going into those places but you must be aware of the risks and have a plan if things get pear shaped.

does that help?

R..
 
"...as an AOW it wasn't "legal" for me to dive without DM supervision and that many places would refuse to rent me gear without either supervision or a DM cert".

Legality is an issue based on the statutes and regulations of a given specific country, or area.

It's quite rare for regulations to exist governing sport scuba diving.

For 99% of locations, this would be untrue.

"...apparently AOW certifies you for overhead"

Absolutely false.

1) Wreck/Cavern adventure dives are optional on AOW.
2) Wreck/Cavern adventure dives are not overhead environment.
3) Adventure dives are experiential only, they do not 'qualify' - a full specialty course is required for that.
4) Wreck/Caver FULL specialty courses only qualify for the "Limited Overhead Environment"; i.e. inside the 'light zone', no 'restrictions' and no more than 40m/130ft linear from surface.

"I suspect he's a DM with a bit of a god complex (there was some bragging involved) but who knows".

A human septic tank. Full of......
 
Interesting. In the Netherlands there is no regulation of diving. Anybody is free to scuba, even if you don't have any certification at all. You can wreck dive etc. if you are stupid enough to do so whit out any training whatsoever.
By the way, hardly anybody does things like that and there are very few accidents with Dutch divers. Most accidents happening over here are with foreigners. But I've never been asked for a card anywhere in the Netherlands. The club, I'm a member of, does have rules. If you want to go on a trip wreck diving, with the boat, owned by the club, you have to be certified in that respect.
 
Interesting. In the Netherlands there is no regulation of diving. Anybody is free to scuba, even if you don't have any certification at all. You can wreck dive etc. if you are stupid enough to do so whit out any training whatsoever.
By the way, hardly anybody does things like that and there are very few accidents with Dutch divers. Most accidents happening over here are with foreigners. But I've never been asked for a card anywhere in the Netherlands. The club, I'm a member of, does have rules. If you want to go on a trip wreck diving, with the boat, owned by the club, you have to be certified in that respect.

Well there are *some* regulations with regards to where you may and may not dive. A good example is that you can't dive within (IIRC) 2km of the Oosterscheldekering (indicated by a line of yellow buoys), near the entrances to harbors etc. You're also not permitted to make a free ascent in a shipping lane for obvious reasons. Shipping lanes are indicated on maps available from Rijkswaterstaat but most divers just go with the rule of thumb that anything deeper than about 10m along dikes lining the Oosterschelde and Grevelingen are virtual overhead environments due to the presence of heavy shipping traffic. Canals often have shipping lanes that extend right to the shore line. Some restrictions also apply to wrecks. It's not permitted to dive on wrecks within Dutch territorial waters unless Rijkswaterstaat has specifically declared it a derelict, for example.

You're are right, however, to point out that there are no legal restrictions on who can go diving. In all my years of teaching and diving in Holland I've only met one person who regularly went scuba diving without a certification. He owned a boat and used scuba so he could clean the bottom of it. He finally came to us to get certified because he was having issues getting tanks filled.

That said, there are European norms for safety that apply to instructors and guides. Although they're only "norms" until ratified by the Dutch government, they are still referenced by authorities in the case of accidents. For example, you're required to have an emergency plan on paper, a first aid kit, surface supervision and an O2 kit on site during a guided dive or a course. There are other "arbo" related rules as well but the point being that for some sport divers, depending on your certification level and activities, there will be some actual regulations to follow.

R..
 

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