Analysis vs Condolences (split from CSSP thread)

[snuggle]

Since it's not productive to the thread, this discussion was split from the original thread...

and just what is there to learn from this..i keep hearing divers talk and talk about learning and learning ect ect ect..theres always someone on the board somewhere sometime that just has to put their two cents in when a diver dies..same ol same ol..there are many accidents that leave nothing to learn from..just once i would love to see a thread where some poor diver has passed on for whatever reason and see not one person trying to put their 2 cents in or assuming they know how it happened and how it could have been prevevnted..

 

[MikeFerrara]

and just what is there to learn from this..i keep hearing divers talk and talk about learning and learning ect ect ect..theres always someone on the board somewhere sometime that just has to put their two cents in when a diver dies..same ol same ol..there are many accidents that leave nothing to learn from..just once i would love to see a thread where some poor diver has passed on for whatever reason and see not one person trying to put their 2 cents in or assuming they know how it happened and how it could have been prevevnted..

Yep...same old same old. Poor diver gets in trouble and the buddy drives away.

There is something we can learn from all accidents. Unfortunately it isn't always something new and infortunately not every one learns it.

 

[lamont]

and just what is there to learn from this..i keep hearing divers talk and talk about learning and learning ect ect ect..theres always someone on the board somewhere sometime that just has to put their two cents in when a diver dies..same ol same ol..there are many accidents that leave nothing to learn from..just once i would love to see a thread where some poor diver has passed on for whatever reason and see not one person trying to put their 2 cents in or assuming they know how it happened and how it could have been prevevnted..

i'd really like to see scubaboard adopt a strategy similar to the one which is evolving on thedecostop where there is a 'memorial' thread opened and an 'accident analysis' thread opened at the same time.

i'm heavily in the 'accident analysis' camp, and i really don't care if the speculation isn't exactly what happened, i think that talking about accidents helps us learn even if it is a strawman based on what we know from newspaper reports. i know that other people completely don't agree and don't want to see anything more than condolences. that's why i think there should be a forum specifically for acident analysis which is opt-in, where anything goes, and where people who don't want to see that kind of discussion can stay out.

i know if i wind up dead from scubadiving that i probably will have done something stupid and i don't mind people pointing that out publically if someone else can learn from it. those are my morals and ethics and they're obviously different from yours, and i think that we have irreconcilable differences on this subject. that's why i think that there needs to be a seperate forum.

 

[Scuba_Steve]

I'm with you lamont (and Mike). There's nothing worse than 1-2 pages of "sorrys". It's almost useless after a while, and then we get the "Please don't speculate" post. C'mon.

Well, that's nice you are sorry. Condolenses done, lets get down to analyzing the accident. As info comes in, the scenario will change, and it doesn't hurt anybody. Besides, as Mike has eluded to already, most of the useable info on this accident is already out there. We just need to fill in some holes for it to be complete. Please understand I am NOT saying anything she would have done would have saved him, but this gents chance was gone when she left.

Your well meaning condolenses are fine with me, but it shouldn't preclude one from learning why these things happen..........over and over and over.

Say it Mike, I know ya wanna.....

If I wind up dead, wake me up just to kick my a$$, because it probably was preventable, and it was probably my fault (or my buddy's).

Regards

Steve

 

[wolf eel]

[lamont
i'd really like to see scubaboard adopt a strategy similar to the one which is evolving on thedecostop where there is a 'memorial' thread opened and an 'accident analysis' thread opened at the same time.]

This is a great idea and would save loads of people the angony of having to read what others may say about the what if factor and so on.

And I also agree if I die diving you all are going to have a great time ripping my mistakes apart have at it And whatever anybody learns pass it on.

Cheers
Derek

 

[Rick Inman]

Probably the best place to hold a true, heart-felt memorial isn't some web-site chat forum. Especially if it's held by people who don't even know the deceased. Brother...
However, it is a good place to analyze and speculate and educate ourselves in an attempt to save our - and others - lives.
Keep asking questions. I would rather be disliked by those who come here looking for warm-fuzzy relationships rather than information and education, than have those same people posting their condolences about me some day.

 

[Kim]

i know if i wind up dead from scubadiving that i probably will have done something stupid and i don't mind people pointing that out publically if someone else can learn from it.

That's basically it though, isn't it? IF you have the facts then you usually CAN learn from it; however what can you actually learn from guesses or speculation? On the other hand guesses and speculation can certainly create great additional pain for people wether or not they are the truth. Added to that a 'grey' area where someone has made a choice to act in a certain way and is already not sure if they did the right thing (but they did what they thought was right at the time). It's easy to be the judge if it's not your family or friends involved. It's probably also easier to be the victim and have your failings discussed AFTER your demise than to be the survivor who might have made a mistake (or not) and have people second guessing your actions.
As is in the sticky for this forum the purpose of accident analysis is to identify things that can be improved by finding the hazards - not the fault. As such speculation about peoples actions and in whatever form suggesting blame or culpability (even with denials like "but I don't mean to.......") should form no part of it.

Just remember - accidents involve real people who normally leave real families behind.

 

[kman458]

however what can you actually learn from guesses or speculation?

alot can be done with speculation. it usually involves going from "if this is what caused the problem" to "what could be done to prevent this from happening again" and doing it with different versions to try and figure out the most likely account of what happened and that is good to get people thinking and learning to hopefully prevent it from happening to someone else.

 

[wolf eel]

[Kim
That's basically it though, isn't it? IF you have the facts then you usually CAN learn from it; however what can you actually learn from guesses or speculation?]

I think a lot. It gets people thinking.

[On the other hand guesses and speculation can certainly create great additional pain for people wether or not they are the truth. Added to that a 'grey' area where someone has made a choice to act in a certain way and is already not sure if they did the right thing (but they did what they thought was right at the time).]

That was my point about my own life and and how you must let people speculate as thats what we do !And I was trashed.

[Just remember - accidents involve real people who normally leave real families behind.

I agree but we must be able to chat with out fear of upseting people thats why the split forum like this is a good idea kinda like the remote if you don't like change the channel.
Cheers
Derek

 

[d33ps1x]

The Deco Stop's method works.

Accident analysis has been a very effective tool for over 25 years in diving.

It remains so and it is actually quite annoying to have bleeding heart types whining about us talking about accidents...in the accident forum.

I can understand their viewpoint and a place for them to share in their own way might help them a lot.