Anyone hear of getting kicked out of BOW?

[hvulin]

Bit of a culture shock when I first ended up back on this side of the pond and found out how much it cost to dive here!

Which "pond" and which side? There is nothing about it in your profile...

 

[asaara]

Which "pond" and which side? There is nothing about it in your profile...

That big salty one that hangs out between Europe and North America...I'd be on the west side of that.

 

[rockjock3]

Lets not get ahead of ourselves here. They never explicitly stated anything like that. Its waaaaaaaay too much be be asking for heads when all I have is suspicion and a "fishy feeling"

That said, they wont ever get any of her or my business again. But thats as far as it goes, and as far as I want it to go.

If you read what I wrote "I TOO FEEL THERE IS MORE TO THE STORY, ****BUT IF IT CAN BE PROVEN***** THAT THE STUDENTS WHERE KICKED OUT OF CLASS FOR BUYING THEIR GEAR ONLINE then that needs to be taken to the overseeing agency for the instructor and the LDS to have them both either put in suspended status or expelled from the agency.

I never said that they should be expelled or suspended on the information given thus far.

 

[SDAnderson]

I dont buy this line of reasoning - or even condoning this line of reasoning.
...
The customer does not owe the LDS any favors - they need to EARN the customer's business, not EXPECT it. A basic course on how to run a business might be in order for anyone who thinks otherwise.

Vandit

I don't disagree with your underlying premise that the business model needs to change. I also agree that the customer doesn't owe the LDS any favors; nor does the LDS owe the customer any favors, if he isn't willing to pay for them.

The part that I always have a hard time understanding when the Great LDS/Internet Shopping Debate gets started is why there is so much anger involved. I suppose the frustration level is getting to everyone - it isn't just the shops that are having a hard time adjusting to the changes that we're seeing. Customers like cheaper prices for gear but they seem to be having a hard time coming to grips with the changes that go hand-in-hand with inexpensive regulators.

A little perspective might help. The old business model involved selling the classes at a low cost as a method to draw the customer into the shop with the idea that the customer would, sooner or later, buy some other more profitable items. It was called loss-leader marketing in my business school classes and it's still very much alive and well in business today. Virtually every sale any merchant runs is offering merchandise at an unsustainably low price on the premise that, if they can get you in the store, you'll buy enough other items to justify the investment. Every Thursday the newspapers are filled with ads from local grocery stores. They aren't trying to clear out an excess supply of milk - they're selling milk cheap in the hope that when you reach for the milk you'll also grab some cottage cheese. Even online scuba merchants offer specials, hoping that if they can get you to visit their store/website to buy that cheap light you'll also buy a bunch of other stuff. There's nothing evil about this kind of marketing, even if it no longer works well for the local dive shop.

Why loss-leader marketing doesn't work very well for local dive shops anymore may be an irrelevant question to the consumer, but also a fairly simple one to answer: the extended reach of internet marketing combined with ever-decreasing shipping costs and disparate local regulations regarding pricing structure have opened competitive opportunities to a geographically diverse set of vendors. Thus, a dive shop in Arizona or New York or Spain can now effectively market to customers in Chicago and deliver those goods at a relatively low cost. Because the online shops don't offer their Chicago customers the opportunity to take a class, they don't have that expense to recover and they can afford to sell equipment at a lower cost than the LDS. Inasmuch as markets are mostly rationale, the LDS in Chicago that doesn't react to this competitive change is in for some difficult times. Regrettably, market changes like the dive industry is seeing can be hard on everyone, including the customer. In the past few years something like 50% of the local dive shops in the metro Chicago region have gone out of business, creating an interesting paradox where gear is increasingly cheap but classes, fills, service and conviviality are increasingly hard to find.

As an aside, the LDS in Chicago may be forgiven for thinking he HAS earned the loyalty of his customer. After all, that's exactly why he's offering cheap classes - he's trying to make an investment in the customer, to demonstrate his goodwill, all in the hope that he develops a loyalty that will be returned at some point. When the customer doesn't reciprocate, the unsophisticated LDS may have a hard time responding appropriately. From the perspective of that local dive shop in Chicago, the world has become an ugly place and adapting can be difficult - extinction is almost always an unpleasant event.

Here's a not-so hypothetical question: how much should a dive class cost? If the LDS can no longer offer classes as a loss-leader, what's would a fair price be for an OW course - or any course?

 

[asaara]

As an aside, the LDS in Chicago may be forgiven for thinking he HAS earned the loyalty of his customer. After all, that's exactly why he's offering cheap classes - he's trying to make an investment in the customer, to demonstrate his goodwill, all in the hope that he develops a loyalty that will be returned at some point. When the customer doesn't reciprocate, the unsophisticated LDS may have a hard time responding appropriately.

And the customer thinks that paying for the class is paying for the class, end of story, just like buying a McDonalds value meal one day doesn't mean you have anything remotely close to an obligation to return to McDonalds over Burger King for lunch the next. Not everybody likes McDonalds "food" after they try it anyways, for something like BOW where people also don't know if they're going to like it, continue doing it, etc., and the equipment costs are far above that of lunch at McDonalds...hell, with the price of fins these days, in my opinion it's not even particularly unreasonable to wait until the diver decides they like it enough to go for AOW before requiring they own mask/fins/snorkel if still needed!

Different business model in different places, I guess.

If you expected me to have all my equipment before I ever showed up at your shop for a particular class, then you wouldn't be getting the sales in question anyways, should I feel guilty if I go for further training at that shop and don't buy any additional equipment I accumulate there? Given that it's been pretty much stated that you're not expecting me to buy from you to start with...

 

[Damselfish]

More likely, the shop is offering the class cheap because everyone else does too. And if they don't most people who don't know better will just go for the cheaper class.

If I buy just the milk that's on sale, they don't tell me I have to buy more stuff to get the milk. Or actually sometimes they do - grocery stores often do stuff like $5 off or free something with specified minimum purchase. Which is perfectly fine too - they're honest and no one has a problem with it.

 

[redacted]

The part that I always have a hard time understanding when the Great LDS/Internet Shopping Debate gets started is why there is so much anger involved.

Because every time it comes up it reminds me how I was deceived and taken advantage of in my first LDS encounter.

 

[SDAnderson]

And the customer thinks that paying for the class is paying for the class, end of story, just like buying a McDonalds value meal one day doesn't mean you have anything remotely close to an obligation to return to McDonalds over Burger King for lunch the next. Not everybody likes McDonalds "food" after they try it anyways, for something like BOW where people also don't know if they're going to like it, continue doing it, etc., and the equipment costs are far above that of lunch at McDonalds...hell, with the price of fins these days, in my opinion it's not even particularly unreasonable to wait until the diver decides they like it enough to go for AOW before requiring they own mask/fins/snorkel if still needed!

Different business model in different places, I guess.

If you expected me to have all my equipment before I ever showed up at your shop for a particular class, then you wouldn't be getting the sales in question anyways, should I feel guilty if I go for further training at that shop and don't buy any additional equipment I accumulate there? Given that it's been pretty much stated that you're not expecting me to buy from you to start with...

All good points, and undisputed. It seems to me that there is a serious disconnect between the local dive shops and the local divers that is leading to a big upheaval in the dive business. Here's hoping that the local dive shops learn to get with the new program - and that the local divers are happy with the consequences of the changes they are demanding.

 

[DBailey]

Since I work for a dive shop in Chicago, I would be very interested in knowing which shop was involved.

As for my take on the OP's story:

1. The information given is sketchy at best.
2. I doubt you are getting 100% of the story from your friend. She may have glossed over some details (embarassing perhaps).
3. It sounds like you are baised towards your friend (rightfully so), and it has skewed your presentation of the story.
4. Your calling of the dive shop is interesting. You have no issue with them. Why are you getting involved?

The only reason I could see a shop kicking someone out for having "online gear" is if that particular manufacturer does not allow online sales. I know my shop has kicked out one person for having online gear. Upon checking the serial number of the gear with the manufacturer, it was determined that the gear was bogus and the instructor kicked the student out of class. The student was told exactly why they were being kicked out. Perhaps you friend is in a similar situation.

 

[redacted]

The only reason I could see a shop kicking someone out for having "online gear" is if that particular manufacturer does not allow online sales. I know my shop has kicked out one person for having online gear. Upon checking the serial number of the gear with the manufacturer, it was determined that the gear was bogus and the instructor kicked the student out of class. The student was told exactly why they were being kicked out. Perhaps you friend is in a similar situation.

Would you care to expand on that rational please? And what is "bogus" gear? Perhaps some specific examples using recognised brand names, like Scubapro, would help make this clear.