AOW and deep dives

[TSandM]

Not sure if I can change the thread title or not but if the mods want to change to...A question about AOW...they can, it won't bother me if one of them does.

Done!

I think one dive below 60 feet does not make one a competent deep diver. Experience has to be built incrementally; it takes time, for example, to build awareness of gas consumption on deeper dives. Ideally, one gets some information and supervised experience, and then goes on to build experience in a cautious and prudent fashion.

 

[uncfnp]

I agree that it is a combination of experience and choice of instructor that will give you the most diving confidence post AOW course. Then go slow, choose the right boats and buddies that will take the time to help you progress safely. If not yet, get Nitrox certified. If you want to go deeper than 100 or so, then yes, IMHO I think additional instruction, formal or otherwise (that's another debate not appropriate here) is needed after AOW and lots of dives under your weight belt.

 

[DivemasterDennis]

The key which is alluded to in some of the prior posts is competence, much more than credentials. The catch 22 is this- how do you gain competence and experience for deep diving ( and by that I mean from 61 feet to 130 feet ) without doing the dives? You can't. So the point is to learn from some source (AOW class, deep diver specialty, or your deep diving competent friends) the particulars of safety, gas management, and other things peculiar to deep diving. In doing so, though, remember that as we limit ourselves to 130 feet, we are still doing no decompression recreational diving. If you want to go deeper or stay longer than no decompression limits, you should plan to do substantial technical training, not recreational diving instruction. So, when are you competent to do deep dives? It depends. My first recreational dive after certification was to 79 feet, with a very experienced divemaster. I took my wife to 90 feet on her third dive, after careful briefing and preparation. I felt competent to dive independently at depths up to 130 feet after completing my advanced class and about 15 deep dives with DM's or instructors. When I evaluate if someone can do a dive that I am leading, in particular a deep dive, I want to know their training level, but more than that, I want to know when they last dove, and where, and I want to know their overall experience as to number of dives and time in the water. If we are not in a training setting ( I have led AOW students on their deep dive on many occasions) I am careful to note which divers are comfortable and competent, and which I may want close to me. Occasionally i suggest a different dive profile.
I know this will draw some comments, but I believe that in calm, warm, clear viz waters, a dive to 100 feet or even 125 feet in not a particularly hazardous or adventurous thing IF there is a proper briefing and awareness by all participants of the need to monitor your gas closely, check all equipment of your own and your buddy carefully before starting the dive, stay close (touching distance) to your buddy, understand gas management, recognize and deal with the symptoms of nitrogen narcosis properly, do a very conservative ascent, have the skills to maintain a good neutrally buoyant safety stop ( or stops) and take the dive seriously. My wife ( an open water diver) dives with me. Out of her 200 plus dives, she has been over 80 feet 50 times and over 100 feet more than 30 times. We have gone on dive trips where all the diving was under 50 feet, and others where most dives were 90 feet or deeper. They were all RECREATIONAL DIVES. Always make the distinction between recreational and technical l diving.
So, should you do a dive on your own with a similarly experienced buddy to 100 feet right after your advanced class? Probably not, but you can dive deep with experienced divers or DM's to get the experience you need to be competent to do those dives with a buddy. If you are on a "led dive" in a small group in user friendly conditions, with competent leadership, AND you have familiarity with deep diving safety protocols AND you monitor your gauges and stay close to your buddy, enjoy stretching you experience with some deep dives.
DivemasterDennis

 

[Jim Lapenta]

The average AOW course doesn't adequately prepare a diver for the deep dive part of the course itself, let alone deep dives afterwards. Narcosis tests using locks, writing ones name, a rubic's cube, etc are just as bogus. They don't simulate real world diving tasks or making judgment calls while under the effects of nitrogen narcosis. So that makes them pretty useless IMO. Color changes have little to do with anything other than to illustrate a basic principle of light absorption that is negated anyway on most deep dives as you should have a light that will allow you to see true colors. It's a task to fill time that requires no skill other than opening your eyes.

I was present when an instructor was briefing a class about to do their deep dive. He asked them what should they do if they accidentally exceeded their NDL. Three students gave three wrong answers and he still took them on the dive. Idiocy. As soon as he saw that they did not know their agency's prescribed procedure he should have taken them back up to the campsite and sat them down for a refresher classroom session.

I was tempted to ask one of them if they had enough gas based on their SAC rate for the dive but kept my mouth shut. I regret not doing it. The deep dive portion of the course should include gas management, emergency deco, verification that students buoyancy and trim skills are above average during dives leading up to the deep, making sure they know how to assist a buddy who loses buoyancy control, how bring a non responsive diver up from depth, how to shoot a bag, and how to deploy and use a redundant air supply appropriate for the dive.

And once on the dive the task loading exercises used to test for and demonstrate narcosis should be actual dive related tasks. I have students run a reel while managing a light at 90 -100 feet and then pull an air share ascent at the beginning of our ascent right after they have secured and handed off the reel to me or their buddy. That is, IMO, a good test to see if they are narced while doing actual dive related tasks.

If the class did not contain these items I wouldn't let anyone I cared about take the course. Or allow them to come on any deep dives I was doing.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Earlier I posted a thread asking about AOW and deep diving but it seems to have disappeared. Aquaregia responded and I responded to him but now the thread is MIA.

My question was about deep diving after AOW and are divers really prepared to dive deep or does AOW just get your feet wet and you need more training to be able to handle diving deep. Aquaregisa's question to me was something along the lines of how deep do I want to dive. My response was that I want to be able to dive on wrecks that hit the 100' mark. A lot of wrecks I have read about seem to be at 80 - 100' or more and I would like to be qualified to dive to that depth if needed. So, what I am looking for is some basic info or thoughts on how qualified you are after AOW. I am currently OW certified thru SSI.

Thanks...

I think the ability to dive deep is the biggest reason why people want to take an AOW class. How well the class prepares you to go to 100 feet depends on several factors, all of which have to do with either you or your instructor. None of the major agencies curriculum will prepare you to plan and execute a deep dive if only the minimum requirements are followed ... but a thorough instructor and a reasonable ability with your basic skills can prepare you if the class goes into more depth about what deep diving entails.

Skills and knowledge you should have include good buoyancy control, reasonable comfort with the skills you learned in OW, good enough awareness to maintain visual contact with your buddy (you DON'T want to get separated at 100 feet), and enough self-confidence to be able to deal with routine issues such as a leaky mask without the urge to surface first. You should also have been introduced to at least the basics of gas management ... sufficient to be able to determine prior to the dive that you'll have enough gas to do your plan with sufficient reserves to deal with the worst-case emergency of having to share your air on an ascent from the deepest part of your dive.

For a bit more on my views, you can refer to this article on my website. On the gas management side, see this article. FWIW - I do include all of this in my NAUI Advanced Scuba Diver course ... although NAUI doesn't mandate that it be taught. But for deep divers in the Pacific Northwest, I would consider it a minimal requirement ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[abyss_scuba]

My students are taken to 100', if I am going to certify you to that depth I want to see you preform there. I also encourage new divers to think of themselves like new drivers, yeah you got that license but are you ready to drive through a snow storm at night? My students are offered the ability to pair up with a more exprienced diver to get more dives to work on their skills, you learn to dive simply by diving, divng and divng some more. There'

 

[t-mac]

Earlier I posted a thread asking about AOW and deep diving but it seems to have disappeared. Aquaregia responded and I responded to him but now the thread is MIA.

My question was about deep diving after AOW and are divers really prepared to dive deep or does AOW just get your feet wet and you need more training to be able to handle diving deep. Aquaregisa's question to me was something along the lines of how deep do I want to dive. My response was that I want to be able to dive on wrecks that hit the 100' mark. A lot of wrecks I have read about seem to be at 80 - 100' or more and I would like to be qualified to dive to that depth if needed. So, what I am looking for is some basic info or thoughts on how qualified you are after AOW. I am currently OW certified thru SSI.

Thanks...

There are two things packaged up here -- the credentials and then the "comfort." First off, academically, AOW (I'm talking PADI from my experience, but I suspect it is the same for SSI) really teaches you little about deep diving. AOW is kind of like the DSD of deep diving. Yeah, by the book you can to go to 100 ft, but that's just part of the story. The Deep specialty is much better in terms of content and you have to do 4 dives, rather than just one. Aside from the credentials, though, you need to make sure you are comfortable, easing into it and minimizing task loading, etc. as you do. Only you can judge this, but before you take on the new challenge of going deeper, I suggest you are very comfortable with your basic skills and gear on shallower dives. There's nothing inherently more difficult about going deeper --it's really mostly mental and you need a clear head. It's easier to get into trouble and you need to be able to focus on the things that prevent trouble and then you need to know how to react if you find yourself in trouble. You can only get to this mental place if you are very comfortable with the basics first.

Safe diving!

 

[uncfnp]

Am I missing something here? Don't you use pretty much the same skill set at 100 that you use at 60? Good buoyancy, gas management, NDL awareness and management, buddy system, safety awareness, etc or have I just been blissfully ignorant during my dives. As I remember, AOW just served to improve, not teach me the skills I already had and emphasize the safe diving aspect to minimize the need for emergency ascent. I use the same equipment at 60 that I do at 100 as well. It's still a recreational dive.

Ok, go ahead and tear this apart...

 

[TSandM]

uncfnp, if you really got taught "good buoyancy, gas management, NDL awareness and management, the buddy system, safety awareness, etc." in your OW class, you had a very good OW class.

Many of the students who pass OW here in Puget Sound have a fairly rudimentary grasp of buoyancy control. My husband has had one AOW student nearly have an uncontrolled, feet-first ascent from 80 feet -- the only thing that stopped it was that there was structure the student could grab, while Peter worked to upend him and allow him the chance to vent his suit.

Gas management is not taught anywhere in the PADI recreational curriculum. When I did my 120 foot dive for the deep specialty, we looked at a tape on the ground to see how far 120 feet was. We talked about what our NDLs were. Not one word was said about gas supply, and when I piped up cheerfully with what the rock bottom for 120 feet was, the instructor looked at me as though I'd suddenly turned into an alien, a la "Men in Black". At the end of that dive, I hung desperately onto the ascent line, because I could not hold a stop in midwater. My deep dive for my AOW class consisted of going to 90 feet, sitting on our haunches in the silt, and looking at color charts. At the end of my AOW, or my deep specialty, did I feel competent to independently plan and execute a dive to 130 feet? No way in Hades.

Yes, there are better classes than mine was. I think we teach one. But if someone goes out of our class thinking he knows everything there is to know about diving deep, he'll have some surprises in store. The night my tank came loose at 100 feet, and my buddy was too narced to understand what was wrong when I tried to explain it . . . and we ended up delayed at that depth until we were almost in deco, and had to do an ascent that ran me low on gas . . . THAT's learning about deep diving, and nobody does that from a class.

 

[uncfnp]

You are absolutely right TSandM. I believe I did have 2 very good instructors in both OW and AOW. Both times it was also just my husband and myself in the class. And I am a bit of a type A and actively pursue knowledge outside of the classroom. I did not mean to imply that my skills were honed at the end of either class, I am still learning on every dive. But I would never have taken the AOW class until I felt I had the basics at least to a competent level. As others have said, in diving as in life, it is the experience that is the best teacher.

And I most likely used the term gas management wrong. By that I meant knowing my MOD, monitoring depth and gas consumption, etc. As I said, I am still learning and I don't always have the correct words to express my concepts. My appologies.