AOW/Rescue Diver Not Respected

[Frontpointer1000]

Great discussion.

A few of my thoughts, ill humbly offer up to SB:

Call it a shakedown dive, check out, or warm up. I believe these are almost always necessary. We all dive in different environments. Changing exposure suits, even tanks and water (salinity, temp, minerality) affects buoyancy. It gives you a chance to get your gear straight. And try out that new piece of gear you just bought. A good dive op will offer/expect this, and you should expect it too.

Diving with a new dive op is like a marriage, or dating before the marriage. The evaluation is a two way street. Watch them more than they watch you. If you are uncomfortable, change dive ops.

I dont see the checkout dive as a direct result of perceived poor training. There may be some causality, but even if everyone was trained well, those skills can be lost over time if not practiced often. This happens with any skill, and has nothing to do with respecting a c card.

I like a dive op that asks me:
1. Highest cert?
2. Last time you were diving?
3. How many dives this year?
4. What environments have you dived in?

Why? Because I know they are asking that of all divers. I want to be on the appropriate boat with similar divers. Every DM I've dived with asks me, initially, at some point about how much gas I have - evaluating me. I always ask them, "how much gas do you have?" Because, well, im evaluating them too. I watch their buoyancy, I watch how people assemble their kits, and how the DMs manage their gear. Listening to the predive schpiel says alot about the dive op, their experience and the DM.

I never let them touch my gear, and my son sets up his own kit. They will try, saying we are on vacation, let us help you...
Touching my gear is not helping me or anyone. I believe they are doing us a disservice by assembling our gear.

 

[Frontpointer1000]

Regarding poor training...

I recently set up a private scuba course for ten of my friends/associates. I am friends with the owners of two LDS, different agencies. I prefer the teaching and standards of one shop over the other, but in the end my friends choose the easier, less rigorous course bc they just wanted to get it done. I explained the differences (imho) but they still went with the latter. I sat in on some of the course content and pool/ow sessions.

I wasn't appalled, but I was a little surprised, I guess. The course really was set for the lowest common denominator. Most of these guys will end up being holiday divers, happy to follow a DM under water and have him set up their gear above water. If that's what they want, fine. I'm glad they get to experience the under water world. I hope one or two will become serious divers and want to learn more.

I've been fortunate that my son (now 14) loves diving and is serious about it. Every dive is a practice dive. This weekend we went to a popular diving hole where open water courses are often taught.
There were 20+ divers, five different ops/instructors.
My son does this thing where he removes his mask for ten minutes at a time, sometimes removing his reg and just floats at 40 ft. That scared some people.

Then we were practicing double back gas OOA (I had a slung pony as well) and buddy breathing off the pony in conjunction with wing malfunction/tear necessitating ascent upside down). One of the instructors saw us and rushed over, almost cramming his octo into my mouth. We just smiled and waved him on. Then my son removed his mask...

Later we were practicing DSMB deployment and proper buoyancy and buddy breathing. We were at 40 ft and there was a platform next to us. I reached out to steady myself. My son looks at me, ashamed, and signs "no, no" finger waving, then our private sign for "big, fat, stinky turd."

Ashamed, I let go of the platform.

 

[Edward3c]

...

Except for #5, all these are SCUBA 101 basics. I don't see the point in practicing sharing air ascent. Maybe for a just recently certified Open Water newbie I guess. You take your buddies alternate reg and breathe it like normal. What's to practice?

It's the divers who don't practice the basic skills are the ones whom don't get signed-off because they don't demonstrate the competence level required. I wouldn't sign a navigation skill off last Saturday because the Advanced Diver candidate missed the exit point by 50m. last August another AD candidate failed to do their 20m rescue within standards. Both the candidates were instructors.

 

[DevonDiver]

Except for #5, all these are SCUBA 101 basics. I don't see the point in practicing sharing air ascent. Maybe for a just recently certified Open Water newbie I guess. You take your buddies alternate reg and breathe it like normal. What's to practice?

(long post - sorry - lots of valid points to make)

There's an element of complacency. Some of the emergency skills do seem very easy under optimal, controlled circumstances. But when needed for real, you need to assume that there'll be significant psychological stress effecting the diver.

At that point, the difference between a practiced and ingrained skill versus something you wrote off as 'easy' might become very evident.

There's hundreds of recreational diving fatalities per year around the globe. In a majority of cases, those fatalities show evidence that the victim divers, and/or those around them, were unable to implement 'ridiculously straightforward' resolutions to their problems.

All those victims felt 'competent enough' to do the dive that ended them, or just assumed 'it'll never happened to me'.

They could all have elected to do some refresher or remedial training. But they didn't bother... or felt they did the need to. Sounds familiar?

I notice a worryingly high proportion of divers who experience stress when taking their masks off. The same is true for, even momentary, cessation of gas supply.

That's not limited only to "newbie" newly certified divers.. because I'm teaching only 'advanced' courses like wreck and technical diving.

Want an example?

I'd assess mask remove/replace by starting with a demonstration. I'd perform the skill slowly, in horizontal trim and my buoyancy won't deviate.

I'd ask you to do the same.

If your buoyancy didn't remain constant, then I'd question your suitability for deep or wreck penetration dives. Why?

Because it's dangerous to pop to the surface from a safety stop after a deep dive, just because you're mask clearing isn't well practiced.

Because in a wreck or cavern... or even just underneath a boat... you might smash your head if unintentionally ascending due to being preoccupied with a 'simple' mask skill.

Or inside a wreck you'd cause a dangerous silt out if you unintentionally descended or dropped your feet trim... just because you needed to clear your mask.

Air sharing ascents are actually quite critical. I've read far too many incident reports where divers have failed in this skill. Again, you must account for psychological stress being present in one or both divers, less than optimal water conditions and other 'real world' factors.

And here's a reality check for you....

I (the guide) might be YOUR buddy on forthcoming dives. Whilst you might be confident in my rescue skills, I also want to have some confidence in your skills. Quid pro quo...

I have a right... and duty-of-care... to safeguard my own safety as a dive professional.

If you're waving a Rescue Diver c-card in my face, then it might influence my decisions on where and how we'll dive together. You'd better be up to the standard you're claiming to be...

Navigating a site you're very familiar with is hardly testing. Isn't that locational memory, not navigational ability?? We're talking about check out dives, so that presumes you're in an unfamiliar location.

Navigation... and that includes situational awareness... is something that requires practice. Most divers I see are content to just 'switch off' and follow a DM. What happens if they lose the DM? Or go somewhere where there is no DM to lead?

Being a (borderline sadistic) technical diving instructor, I've got no problem making 'advanced divers' lose their cool over the most "simple" diving skills.

It's relatively easy to do this because divers become so accustomed to associating these skills with the most optimum conditions for practice. Mostly that's clear, calm, shallow water. Skills are done in isolation and divers know what's coming and are prepared for it. They also enjoy the confidence that an instructor is supervising them and will intercede if they get into any difficulty.

Take away those false conditions and you'll see a lot more stress evident. One skill failure breeds further failures, easily causing a dangerous cascade in stress and issues to be resolved.

If technical divers can melt-down over simple skills, just because they're tested realistically, what hope do novice divers have?

I'll tell you what hope.... diligent routine practice and not over-estimating their ability based on how 'easy' stuff was when they did it in kindergarten conditions...

 

[Lorenzoid]

Along the lines of what Andy said, when you're not in the water, it's easy to convince yourself that you can do these seemingly simple skills when they may be needed to handle a situation. But everything is harder underwater, especially when there is already a "situation" as opposed to a practice session. Or when you feel cold, tired, frustrated, or stressed. Could you do them fluidly under those circumstances, without adding more stress to the situation? Also, each skill may be individually easy, but what if you need to handle two of them at once? Practicing at least some of them so that they are second nature can go a long way toward avoiding a downward spiral of events that gets out of control.

 

[Bennno]

If technical divers can melt-down over simple skills, just because they're tested realistically, what hope do novice divers have?

Yes, and why is that? You can only partly blame the divers. The problem are crappy instructors that don't let people fail classes. You guys should be talking about laughably low (tec) instructor standards instead of blaming the customers.
Stop looking for excuses for PADIs/SSIs non existing quality standards, Andy! The customer should be able to expect decent quality, but they can't and that's the MAIN problem.

These days it's pretty much normal that you can't fail classes, including PADI instructor classes. If PADI had a higher standard when it comes to their instructors, cert would be taken more seriously!

 

[Bennno]

It's the divers who don't practice the basic skills are the ones whom don't get signed-off because they don't demonstrate the competence level required. I wouldn't sign a navigation skill off last Saturday because the Advanced Diver candidate missed the exit point by 50m. last August another AD candidate failed to do their 20m rescue within standards. Both the candidates were instructors.

That's great and this is how it's supposed to be. Unfortunately you're one out a 100 instructors who would do that, maybe one out a 1000 and you probably not trained by PADI either.

 

[Aguablanco1]

"If technical divers can melt-down over simple skills, just because they're tested realistically, what hope do novice divers have?"

Now the conversation is going towards novice divers. My OP wasn't about novice divers as I recall. We could go a step further and discuss how unsafe uncertified divers are next. I was not discussing tec or wreck either. I was referencing divers that actually dive and hold the documentation to prove it. If a DM or instructor wants to observe me dive, something that I believe would be irresponsible to neglect, that is fine. If the shop wants to delay the start of my diving by a day, or even a dive, to give me some kind of made up "test" there is a problem.

"Yes, and why is that? You can only partly blame the divers. The problem are crappy instructors that don't let people fail classes. You guys should be talking about laughably low (tec) instructor standards instead of blaming the customers."

And herein lies the bulk of the problem. I truly believe that the shops that want all of these check out dives know they are the real problem. They pass students that lack basic skills, and then blame the divers for poor performance. And since they pass divers with minimal skills they assume that all shops do the same. I took OW, AOW, Rescue and DM from different shops and instructors so I could get different perspectives and knowledge. All of them were competent and held me to, what I still believe were, higher standards. Maybe I was just lucky. I have seen quite a bit of marginal instruction and passing of students simply for showing up and it has been disappointing.
RichH

 

[DevonDiver]

My OP wasn't about novice divers as I recall.

My apologies. It's a case of perspective. I'd count 200 dives as relatively novice.

It's less than 2 months diving for a full-time instructor or DM... or a couple of years for an occasional weekend diver.

As I said, check out dives have to be relevant to the following dives. They aren't necessarily 'Scuba Reviews' or refreshers.

If the diving was only in a placid clear water 40' lake.. then theres no great demand for a check out dive... other than to ascertain the bare minimal competency.

If, on the other hand, the operator was planning a 100' wall dive with potential for down currents... or a 90' deep weck in cold water and very low viz... or an atoll channel dive with ripping currents.... Then you'd need to assess a little bit more robustly.

If the shop wants to delay the start of my diving by a day, or even a dive, to give me some kind of made up "test" there is a problem.

Yes, the problem would be that you weren't permitted to dive.

I truly believe that the shops that want all of these check out dives know they are the real problem. They pass students that lack basic skills, and then blame the divers...

Believe what you want. You seem to have zero inclination to listen.

We're you as open-minded on your DM course? Or is this just an internet persona right now?

Joking aside, the fact is that shops which'd apply a policy of checkout dives aren't likely to be the ones producing bad divers.

It's hardly following the "quick, cheap and easy" playbook, is it?

The shops producing bad divers are the ones who are all quantity driven and wouldn't do anything that'd risk losing a dime in revenue.

They're the ones taking DSDs to 60ft+ or taking newly certified OWs to 160ft...or taking non-wreck qualified divers deep into the engine rooms....

In short... the shops that'll never say "no".

... and that's why they don't say "no" when it comes to handing out certifications either.

Dive shops don't rip people off by over-charging. They curb quality to make things as cheap as possible. They're fast-food....and they profit on volume turnover.

You think a dive center profits more from running a quick out dive in the morning ... or from taking you directly out on a 2 tank tour? Hint: They're losing money on that checkout.

Check out dives is a case of trying to fix other people's low standards. Get a little experience in the industry and you'd understand that a lot better.

 

[Aguablanco1]

My apologies. It's a case of perspective. I'd count 200 dives as relatively novice.

It's less than 2 months diving for a full-time instructor or DM... or a couple of years for an occasional weekend diver.



As I said, check out dives have to be relevant to the following dives. They aren't necessarily 'Scuba Reviews' or refreshers.

If the diving was only in a placid clear water 40' lake.. then theres no great demand for a check out dive... other than to ascertain the bare minimal competency.

If, on the other hand, the operator was planning a 100' wall dive with potential for down currents... or a 90' deep weck in cold water and very low viz... or an atoll channel dive with ripping currents.... Then you'd need to assess a little bit more robustly.



Yes, the problem would be that you weren't permitted to dive.




Believe what you want. You seem to have zero inclination to listen.

We're you as open-minded on your DM course? Or is this just an internet persona right now?

Joking aside, the fact is that shops which'd apply a policy of checkout dives aren't likely to be the ones producing bad divers.

It's hardly following the "quick, cheap and easy" playbook, is it?

The shops producing bad divers are the ones who are all quantity driven and wouldn't do anything that'd risk losing a dime in revenue.

They're the ones taking DSDs to 60ft+ or taking newly certified OWs to 160ft...or taking non-wreck qualified divers deep into the engine rooms....

In short... the shops that'll never say "no".

... and that's why they don't say "no" when it comes to handing out certifications either.

Dive shops don't rip people off by over-charging. They curb quality to make things as cheap as possible. They're fast-food....and they profit on volume turnover.

You think a dive center profits more from running a quick out dive in the morning ... or from taking you directly out on a 2 tank tour? Hint: They're losing money on that checkout.

Check out dives is a case of trying to fix other people's low standards. Get a little experience in the industry and you'd understand that a lot better.