AOW/Rescue Diver Not Respected

[admikar]

Flight time is usually paid by minute. Checkout is mandatory every time I go to rent a plane from a flight school that don't know me, despite my logbook, which contains destinations, flight times, aircraft types, all training and examination flights verified by instructor(s)/examiner(s). And I pay for every minute of it. It is their op, and their rules.
Besides, I am sure most of "checkouts" come from inclination of "victims" or their families to sue in every direction when smelly stuff hits air pushing device.
Edited to add: As a private pilot, I go through exam flight every two years, to see if I kept my skills at certain level. If I fail, more training is required to keep my licence. When was you last official exam dive?

 

[Aguablanco1]

Most of us have lives away from diving. ~200 dives is hardly a novice. While it is not Jacques Cousteau level it is hardly beginner level. Sorry we can't all get 400+ dives per year.
The problem would not be that I wasn't allowed to dive, the issue would be more like how many other dive ops are there?
I will believe exactly what I want, thanks for the permission. I believe that I have shown a propensity to listen, after I don't know how many posts you have made on this subject, what you seem to dislike is the fact that I refuse to agree with your premises. Oh well, we probably won't be buddies on any dives in the near future anyway.
Actually my persona changes very little from internet to in person. No joking intended. You seem more pressured to be right than I do. Do what you like and I will do the same.
I love ad hominem attacks. How much industry experience do I need to be a scuba diver? I've seen enough dive ops to understand how things work, or don't work as the case may be.

You like check outs, I don't. It's that simple. I don't mind, and even expect, to be observed. I know that the DM will make a judgement, that is human nature, and part of their job. What I object to is having to perform some shop ritual whereby they divine how good of a diver I am. I especially object if I have to pay for that dive or it interferes with my planned dives.
RichH

 

[Aguablanco1]

Flight time is usually paid by minute. Checkout is mandatory every time I go to rent a plane from a flight school that don't know me, despite my logbook, which contains destinations, flight times, aircraft types, all training and examination flights verified by instructor(s)/examiner(s). And I pay for every minute of it. It is their op, and their rules.
Besides, I am sure most of "checkouts" come from inclination of "victims" or their families to sue in every direction when smelly stuff hits air pushing device.

What in the world does flying have to do with scuba? Flight is Federally regulated, I don't think scuba is yet. Crash your plane and it is impossible to know how many people could die, in that accident. How many multiple scuba deaths occur from a rusty or under trained diver? Apples and oranges.
RichH

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . . If the shop wants to delay the start of my diving by a day, or even a dive, to give me some kind of made up "test" there is a problem.

Am I the only one who has not experienced this kind of onerous check-out, where the check-out delays my scheduled dives or requires a demonstration of specific skills? Where in the world are check-outs like this? If this degree of check-out is very rare, then are you aiming your argument at a straw man?

I understand that many dive ops will require one to take a refresher course if they haven't dived in a year or more, but that's not what we're talking about, is it? If I understand correctly, we're talking about something that some dive ops--mainly resorts and liveaboards, I suppose--require of all their guests at the beginning of their stay. The check-out dives I have done have all been transparent, in the sense that one would hardly know at the time that they were being "checked out." Only after experiencing more challenging dives later in the week might it occur to a diver that the first dive was intentionally less challenging, and the diver might then recall that on the first dive the DM even handed a lead weight to that one guy who couldn't seem to hold the safety stop, and that the DM no longer asks divers to signal their air remaining, etc. Showing a C-card plus this sort of soft check-out is all I have ever experienced.

 

[DevonDiver]

Most of us have lives away from diving. ~200 dives is hardly a novice.

Opportunity to dive has zero bearing on defining relative competency.

I've been where you are... and, trust me, it's still novice territory. (and yes, I'd have been disgruntled to have been told that at the time).

Sorry we can't all get 400+ dives per year.

Perspective: When I was working in Thailand I'd easily be doing 100+ dives a month.

Not doing that level of diving isn't anything bad... So don't take it as a criticism.

However, do remember the reality of what being an instructor can mean.... as you do seem quick to level your finger in criticism of instructors.

The problem would not be that I wasn't allowed to dive, the issue would be more like how many other dive ops are there?

Yep, I see that all the time. Customer gets told "no", so they wander off to look for a more amenable operation that'll say "yes" to whatever the diver what's to do.

It's the exact type of customer behaviour that empowers and rewards the lowest quality dive centers.

Happens all the time if you work in an ethical dive center. Here's an insight... as you stomp out of the dive center in a tantrum having not gotten your own way... they'll be glad to see you leave. Truth...

I will believe exactly what I want... , what you seem to dislike is the fact that I refuse to agree with your premises.

It's a matter of perspective. My perspective is shaped by 25 years in diving around the globe and having run 3 dive centers. It's shaped from living and breathing every facet of the diving industry for well over a decade.

But it's only my perspective. As I said, I've been in your position, long ago, and I can appreciate your perspective intimately.

I get the feeling something happened to annoy you, so you vented on the forum expecting sympathy and agreement. My comments and perspectives didn't meet your expectations and that's frustrating.

.

You seem more pressured to be right than I do.

There's no pressure. As I said, I'm contributing my perspectives. Nothing more, nothing less. My intentions are purely educational, not confrontational. If its not educational for you, then it may be appreciated by others.

How much industry experience do I need to be a scuba diver? I've seen enough dive ops to understand how things work, or don't work as the case may be.

.

What I object to is having to perform some shop ritual whereby they divine how good of a diver I am.

But you're pretty proud of your current C-cards and DM status... for which you willingly subjected yourself to some agency "ritual whereby they defined how good of a diver you were".

So basically, you only want to play the assessment game if you get a shiny new card out of it?

That... without being gifted a card.. the instructor's assessment is irrelevant and uninformed? But if it's to earn some status symbol certificate, their assessment is very important and authoritative?

I especially object if I have to pay for that dive or it interferes with my planned dives.

But you'd simultaneously protest against the issue of cheap, convenient and undemanding attitudes lowering the quality of diver training?

Do you see an irony in that?

 

[DevonDiver]

Crash your plane and it is impossible to know how many people could die, in that accident. How many multiple scuba deaths occur from a rusty or under trained diver? Apples and oranges.

So.... 200 people dying in one accident is horrific. Wheras 200 people dying in 200 accidents is nothing?

The best answer to your question lies in varied diving accident reporting/analysis databases online. The BSAC and DAN annual accident reports are amongst the best.

There's also a good FB group, that Jim Lapenta started, which lists diving accidents (almost every day).

Incidentally, I have my DM candidates read these accident reports and we have group discussions on them for the purposes of teaching risk management and understanding the dynamics of how accidents occur...and can be avoided.

Do I really need to tell you that most non-medical related, recreational diving, fatalities could have been avoided by better trained and more practiced divers?

The demographics of diving incidents is quite interesting.

There's an obvious spike in newly trained, inexperienced, divers..then incidents decrease as divers gain more training and experience.... and THEN accidents spike again as divers get complacent, over-confident and over-ambitious.

That complacency...taking shortcuts, normalisation-of-deviance, neglecting practice. Ability actually declines. Sadly, this coincides with a point where the diver gets the highest (false) confidence in their (self-percieved) abilities.

Do read about 'Dunning-Kruger' theory for an insight into the issues. It's particularly relevant at your stage of diving development. Also try reading:

Diving Safety - The Experience Paradox

We discussed earlier about what a 'novice' diver was and was not..

From my perspective, a novice diver is one who's yet to be tempered by experience. It's where they still feel invulnerable. They've yet to gain the experience necessary to make them understand the realities of things going wrong.

It's where the diver is still blissfully unaware of their fallibility and limits. Having enough experience to make you feel confident is novice level. Having the experience to make you feel cautious is where intermediate level diving starts.

It's also where.... according to Dunning-Kruger... they still cannot form an accurate comprehension of competency and capability significantly greater than their own.

 

[Edward3c]

That's great and this is how it's supposed to be. Unfortunately you're one out a 100 instructors who would do that, maybe one out a 1000 and you probably not trained by PADI either.

Your right I'm a BSAC diver.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

If the shop wants to delay the start of my diving by a day, or even a dive, to give me some kind of made up "test" there is a problem.

... and that was my real problem with that bogus checkout dive at CocoView ... despite the fact that we arrived at 10 in the morning, they wouldn't let us dive that day because we need to demonstrate (by kneeling in a few feet of water) that we were capable of clearing a mask and recovering a regulator.

I don't have a problem with checkout dives ... almost every place I've ever been required one. I do have a problem with them when they're totally bogus and cost you a day of diving that you paid for in advance.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Am I the only one who has not experienced this kind of onerous check-out, where the check-out delays my scheduled dives or requires a demonstration of specific skills? Where in the world are check-outs like this? If this degree of check-out is very rare, then are you aiming your argument at a straw man?

It's not that common, but it does happen. Most checkout dives (in my experience) are just dives ... you have some fun on a relatively easy dive, the dive guide gets a decent evaluation of your actual skill level, and your itinerary afterward is often based on what he or she sees.

But there are those rare times when it's something that just makes you want to facepalm and ask yourself what in hell these people are thinking ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It's a matter of perspective. My perspective is shaped by 25 years in diving around the globe and having run 3 dive centers. It's shaped from living and breathing every facet of the diving industry for well over a decade.

Your perspective is also shaped by the fact that for you, losing a day of diving in a tropical paradise is no big deal ... you can always come back any day you want and do it again. For most divers, those opportunities are rare and expensive ... and in some cases, a once in a lifetime opportunity.

Much of your perspective is shaped by the fact that you do it every day ... and that diving isn't an adventure for you, it's a job.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)