Are you serious! I guess since that was your experience, going OW directly to AOW, I will bow to that experience and not offer another perspective.
Rather be out diving anyway...
AOW right after OWD
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Are you serious! I guess since that was your experience, going OW directly to AOW, I will bow to that experience and not offer another perspective.
Rather be out diving anyway...
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Your perspective is as relevent as anyone else's ... but your experience wasn't one of someone who went directly from OW to AOW.
I'm speaking from the experience of an instructor who has done remedial work with quite a few folks who came to me for additional training because they didn't get anything out of their AOW class. In pretty much every case, it was because they weren't yet ready to take the class when they did. In effect, all they did was buy a card ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
I admit it. I am weak and can't resist one last "clarification."
I mistook the op. I though he wanted honest, varied opinion. I made it clear from post #9 (just prior to your post) my experience and progress to AOW. It served as the rationale for my stance on OW to AOW. My subsequent posts regarding my "experience" was in response to direct comments to another poster that apparently, in hind site, did not read post 9 either. Or some of the "clarification" since then. I guess his misconception and assumptions lead him to try and use me to justify his "suspicions" regarding Padi.
---------- Post added April 30th, 2013 at 08:14 PM ----------
BTW, I think my experience is relevant. It's the third side of a three sided coin; those that did, those that didn't, and the instructors that teach both.
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There are more than three sides ... and you seem to be playing your own game of semantics in some of your posts. For example, you pulled my comment out of context in order to dispute it ... and you chose to take it in a manner that it clearly wasn't intended to convey. I won't argue that point with you ... take it as you choose.
If you want to refer to technical diving as "advanced" that's also your choice ... but the rest of the industry doesn't use the term that way. Advanced in this case means something beyond basic ... and that's what the AOW course is ... in spirit, if not application ... intended to provide.
And it isn't a PADI issue ... most agencies, including the one I teach for, permit (if not actively encourage) selling AOW straight from OW. It's generally an instructor's decision whether or not to approach it in that manner. There's also a difference ... again usually at the instuctor's discretion, as to how the class gets taught. Some use it as an experience-based class with little to no actual instruction beyond the application of things you touched on in OW. Others use it as an opportunity to teach real skills, delve deeper into topics such as dive planning, buddy skills, buoyancy control, finning techniques, complex navigation techniques, use of reels, spools, lift bags and DSMB's, and a host of other skills and topics relevent to the environment in which the class is being taught.
And some of this can legitimately be called advanced ... at least in the manner the industry recognizes the term. As an example, the final dive of my AOW class involves doing the entire dive at a constant depth of 20 feet ... in water deep enough that you can't see the bottom ... while navigating a specified course. One diver gets the compass, the dive buddy gets the depth gauge and bottom timer. In order to navigate the course they have to work together, communicate, and manage their buddy positioning while maintaining a constant depth. So yeah ... in the context of recreational diving, I'd call that advanced ... I know DM's who can't do it. But after learning how, you won't ever struggle to maintain awareness of your dive buddy again, or have to settle on your knees to read a compass or do pretty much any other task a diver might normally be expected to do. Another example you mentioned earlier is gas planning. My students have to plan out how much gas they'll need for their deep dive ... based on this article, which is part of their AOW curriculum. We simply don't go deep without knowing before the dive ever starts how much gas that dive will require. That's not something you'll learn in your basic OW class. But if you don't want to call it "advanced", I'd settle for advancement.
That's really rather the point of AOW ... not to become advanced, but to advance beyond what you learned in your basic OW class. How far you advance depends on the instructor's approach to teaching the class and your preparedness to take it ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
DevonDiver
N/A
PADI do offer the 'Discover Local Diving' program. It serves as a formal introduction to diving in an area which has different environment and/or conditions to what the diver has experienced previously:
PADI:
Perfect for divers transitioning from fresh-water training into diving a salt-water environment, for cold-warm water environments etc..
You don't often see these advertised, because... well, those transitions rarely require a formal orientation. If specific equipment or techniques pertain to a specific environment, it is far more common to offer the relevant specialty course; i.e. drysuit, drift etc. You 'could' classify Boat Diver under those terms, but realistically, it's such a no-brainer that many dive instructors/operations aren't going to take people's money for the effort needed to brief them on what they need to know to dive off a boat..
Tigerman
Contributor
They are good ways to work towards that impressive master diver cert though - If youve done a few dives in different locations and from a boat, how hard is it to get signed off for it and get the cards?
If I wanted the MD cert Im pretty sure I could get someone to sign me off on drift, boat, discover local diving and drysuit... Theire generally useless certs, but if I really wanted the MD cert it would definetly be the fast track in addition to the nitrox cert I already have - which is a whole lot more useful I might add
t4e
Contributor
if you need to hire a professional or DM to make your dives (not to enhance the dive experience) then you need more instruction...like maybe AOW.
wrong....you do that out of respect for other divers because your skills are not up to par and your air consumption will be crap, so you separate yourself from the rest of the group as not to ruin their dives by running out of air or whatever else might be an issue as well as getting a chance to practice your skills and do whatever the heck you want without inconveniencing a group of 6-8 divers
still struggling to get this....its water...what the difference other than needing more weights?
...other then comparing pool with lake or ocean anything else is a body of water, what difference does it make how you apply your skills, either you paid attention in your OW course and know them and you can use them or you don't
DevonDiver
N/A
Discover Local Diving (DLD) isn't a cert. It's an experience (like a Scuba Review). Just a log-book entry only.
IMHO, drysuit isn't useless training - in the UK drysuit buoyancy issues feature far too commonly in DCS statistics (as do DSMBs). Whilst you can, of course, self-train... there are significant consequences if you do so improperly or incompletely.
Drift was invaluable for me when I did the training in the Maldives. I had no experience of 'proper' drift diving - and the techniques used on some of the 'advanced' dives (very strong current) in that area were beyond my understanding at the time. I can see how it'd be quite pointless taking/running such courses in areas where the water didn't 'rip' though. Doing a drift dive on AOW and/or a DLD wouldn't have cut the mustard IMHO.
Tigerman
Contributor
The techniques is not useless, the certs are..
With regards to currents, any good briefing will cover what you have to know and a few dives where you pay attention will give you experience in how to handle them.. I have my fair share of drift dives in various locations, including my first ones in cozumel and cancun. Dont know how that compare to the maldives, but you sure wouldnt be able to swim against the currents we had there..
What I needed to know really was covered in OW and the briefing - but then again I actually paid some attention and read the book when I did my OW course..
I did my AOW before that, but drift diving wasnt even mentioned in my AOW course, unlike deep, night, nav, wreck and s&r..
The DS course is.. meh, cba, but suffice to say that all the DS threads tend to start with "so I was in the DS and I feelt like an idiot" and end with "youll have to just get a few dives and get used to it" - far more than what the DS course would be..
DevonDiver
N/A
The value of training is very different to the value of certification. Training is about real-world competency. Certifications only have 2 practical values:
1) To provide evidence of prerequisite training for future development. If a given course does not feature in the required prerequisites for any future training, then this value is moot. This is the case for most, but not all, specialty courses.
2) To provide evidence of prerequisite training / assessed competence with specialist techniques or equipment. This value is entirely dependent on whether the scuba industry demands training/competence in a given area, or not. For instance, proof of certification to obtain a supply of nitrox is virtually universal. Deep Diver qualification to exceed 30m/100ft is generally required. Night Diver qualification to do a night dive would be very rare. Underwater Photographer qualification to carry a camera on a dive is pretty much unheard of..
AOW is a rare beast - it isn't necessary for diving to 30m/100ft... it doesn't train to dive to 30m/100ft... but has been popularly adopted by the industry as a minimum prerequisite for diving in the 18m/60ft - 30m/100ft range. It is utilized as a very general proof of prerequisite 'experience beyond OW level'. It is also a prerequisite certification for Rescue Diver and a number of specialty courses. That gives it a 'value' that is unrelated to what the course actually aims to accomplish.
In that sense, certifications (especially specialty) are often perceived as valueless more often than not, even though they provide specific skills and knowledge applicable to specific activities or equipment. In contrast, AOW has a perceived high value, despite providing relatively few (no?) additional specific knowledge, skills or equipment competency.
Looking at the Drift course requirements, it is a bit useless. The course I took far exceeded the performance standards and included DSMB deployment and the use of SMB (deployed all dive) with reel etc.. We were taught how to use underwater topography to influence the effect of currents. We were shown (not just taught) what a down-current was..and how to cope with it. We were also shown how to do negative entries, use 'reef hooks', exit via drift/trail lines from boats etc etc...
However, this is what we 'achieved' for the qualification:
As with many things 'PADI', the actual performance requirements for the course are a shambles. They can be interpreted to a greater or lesser degree by the instructor to provide very variable quality of training. As with the Wreck Diver course - there seems to be deliberate fuzziness in the standards to permit the course to be run universally regardless of the availability of appropriate training locations. You can 'fulfill' wreck requirements on a sunken canoe... you can 'fulfill' drift requirements in a flat-calm quarry.. yuk..
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