AOW student dies in training: Alberta

[Thalassamania]

Low standards does not mean, ipso facto, an entire industry composed of low quality DMs or Instructors. It is possible to clear the bar by a huge amount.

 

[Roko]

I sometimes take diving in cold water for granted. All of our diving here ends up being cold water, so I've gotten use to it. I can see how someone who never has would have trouble.

It's interesting to note that Edmonton/Alberta has a reputation for having a lot of divers, however from personal anecdotal experience when I lived there I believe a lot are warm water vacation divers. (especially given the numbers of people I saw doing the pool portion locally then doing their OW dives on Vacation.) Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Some cross over and start local cold water diving, which is a lot different than warm water diving, given the added stressors of low viz, cold, thick exposure suits with their buoyancy characteristics, much different weighting requirements, etc.

Hypothetically, you can do OW in the tropics, then do AOW in cold water without much if any experience in that new environment, which does introduce a safety risk.

I used to recommend to friends that they do their full OW locally in cold water before their vacations, but now I'm not sure that that's always the best advice -- some people just plain old don't like cold water diving, and it would be a shame to turn someone off from the sport because of it.

Sent from my Android

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

We have a system that works and that has resulted in a much better safety record than any of the other diving communities. The recreational community can learn from what we have done or can continue to po-po it and die ... it is their choice. BTW: science divers are not paid to dive, that is entirely voluntary and any diver can refuse to dive at any time, for any reason without loss of pay or anything else.

Oh, I'm not po-po'ing it at all ... it's a great system. I just see it more like I see DIR ... which is to say that it works for some people, in some applications ... but would not appeal to the majority.

It shouldn't boil down to "do it this way or continue to die" ... there's no excuse for people dying under the current system ... if it's taught and adhered to properly. The real problem is that the current system is often just given lip service ... by the agency, the instructor, or the diver ... or some combination thereof.

If a diver simply adheres to the methods that are SUPPOSED to be taught by every recreational agency out there, they should rarely if ever have to deal with an OOA ... and when they do, the skills should be in place to deal with it safely.

What your approach primarily offers that I think should be adopted by the recreational world at large is the opportunity, during that training, to practice and demonstrate those skills repeatedly ... to the point where they are truly learned, and not simply parroted without truly learning or understanding them.

That's what's mostly missing ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[USVet96]

I'm late to the party but I want to begin with condolences to the victim, the family, friends, and everyone associated with this tragedy.

The loss of human life is a terrible thing to go through and for that I'm sorry.

I've been reading and following along here and I wanted to make a few points. I think it is ultimately the responsibility of the end diver to well trained in technique, their equipment and gear, and to be comfortable (I.E. experienced) with the environment they will be diving in. I ALSO think it is the responsibility of the INSTRUCTOR (IF the dive is being performed as part of a class) to be able to SAFELY monitor and be in a position to control, ALL of the divers in their class, during the duration of that dive they are doing. Instructors have to remember that as students, they are RELYING on YOU (the instructor) to be there FOR THEM if something comes up that they cannot handle themselves, or with their buddy. That is WHY they are in the class because they are NOT ready to be on their own yet.

That being said, the diver should have proper knowledge and training in ALL aspects of diving; to include safety situations, emergency procedures, equipment, bailing, sharing air, alternate air source, etc. These skills NEED to be practiced over and over and over until they become second nature. It's the diver who ultimately must say that NO, I'm not ready to make this dive if they aren't comfortable with it.

The issue i see with emergency procedures and training in them and knowing what to do in case of an emergency is just that, they are EMERGENCY procedures that you train to NOT be in, and do proper planning to AVOID them at all costs. You can train and practice at it but there is never going to be a situation like a real emergency. And when THAT happens you simply don't know how you will handle it. The best idea to me is to do as much training you can in the worse possible scenario. That way IF it happens you will at least be comfortable in that you are trained for it.

This is like when I was in the AF and performing Airborne operations. We trained again and again and drilled chute failures ALL THE TIME. Mid air entanglements, partial chute inflation, cigar chutes, lost air, cut away mains, etc., etc., etc., we practiced them ALL - hundreds of times. But you never actually know how you will deal YOURSELF until an incident. I had an incident and I was extremely lucky. I was lucky in 2 regards: 1 - I didn't leave an emergency to chance, fate, or luck, and trained to deal with emergencies in the air; so WHEN it happened I knew what to do physically and I did it; and 2 - I was at an elevation that ALLOWED me to take emergency action. I HAD TIME to do what I was trained for.

The biggest thing IMO is to be properly trained with your gear, properly educated with your techniques, properly informed about emergency procedures (which are gone over with EVERYONE on the team BEFORE getting wet), discussing emergency situations and what to do, and what each person will do in an eergency event, before getting wet, knowing and trusting your buddy (also go over emergencies with them), and to dive WITHIN your training limits. If you are so deep when an accident might happen that you CANNOT take emergency action, then you are too deep.

Sorry for the long post.

Safe Diving all

 

[Thalassamania]

Oh, I'm not po-po'ing it at all ... it's a great system. I just see it more like I see DIR ... which is to say that it works for some people, in some applications ... but would not appeal to the majority.

It shouldn't boil down to "do it this way or continue to die" ... there's no excuse for people dying under the current system ... if it's taught and adhered to properly. The real problem is that the current system is often just given lip service ... by the agency, the instructor, or the diver ... or some combination thereof.

If a diver simply adheres to the methods that are SUPPOSED to be taught by every recreational agency out there, they should rarely if ever have to deal with an OOA ... and when they do, the skills should be in place to deal with it safely.

What your approach primarily offers that I think should be adopted by the recreational world at large is the opportunity, during that training, to practice and demonstrate those skills repeatedly ... to the point where they are truly learned, and not simply parroted without truly learning or understanding them.

That's what's mostly missing ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

What's missing is time. Training programs are too short, repetitions are too few, corners cut are too many. Do the specific exercises/activities matter? Likely not ... some will make more efficient use of time than others, some will result in better learning than others, but when the time constraints are removed, most of the problems go away.

 

[Crush]

Some of the diving standards that Thal has espoused I have seen put into practice in DIR/GUE. I can't be certain that the implementation is the same since, as yet, I haven't had the opportunity to take one of Thal's classes. This leads me to the following observation:

Back in 2008, when I first learned to dive, I had heard about DIR and met some practitioners on a dive trip. I couldn't believe how arrogant and narrow-minded those DIR divers were. Later, in 2011 I took Fundies and got to appreciate some aspects of DIR and its practitioners. I am amazed at how much DIR and its divers have learned in only three years (with respect to Mark Twain).

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

What's missing is time. Training programs are too short, repetitions are too few, corners cut are too many. Do the specific exercises/activities matter? Likely not ... some will make more efficient use of time than others, some will result in better learning than others, but when the time constraints are removed, most of the problems go away.

... give that man a cheroot ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[markmantei]

Whiles scrolling back to check on the next point, I ran into the post--it was Dandy Don. (no biggie)

Sorry and thanks for the correction. I was a bit rushed and didn't take the time to check who posted it

A response conditioned to panic? How do you train someone for what they should for when they are panicking?

No, more of a conditioned response to avoid the panic. I would say that to armchair quarterback is easy, but weight ditching seems to be often overlooked by the victim. This was drilled into me in my OW class, I don't remember if an exact stat was quoted, but suffice it to say that my instructor had indicated that in many incidents the victim was found on the bottom with air in his tank and weight still attached. When in a situation that you are unprepared for (the cause of panic), the solution is to prepare (train) better, which must be done before said situation. If you cannot get to or stay on the surface, ditch weight. Better injured on the surface than dead at depth.

The problem with making it a conditioned response is that while you can train people to ditch their weights, you can't train them to ditch their weights in the appropriate scenario. When a diver is OOA with no buddy present, then the proper action is a controlled emergency ascent, with the weights retained. The diver should have no trouble reaching the surface that way. It should be routine. That is what they are taught to do in their OW training. A buoyant ascent (dropping weights) is appropriate when the diver does not think reaching the surface via a controlled emergency ascent is possible.

I agree, but isn't this teaching when it is appropriate to ditch weight (as a last ditch effort when you cannot otherwise reach the surface, or when you are unable to remain on the surface?

Before this thread was cleared up by the mods, it became such a mess that it was hard to remember any of the details of the incident. I just went through the cleaned up version and found no reference to difficulty in removing the weight. If there was such information, it was not posted here.

On the other hand, there is a concurrent thread about a double fatality in the Florida Keys that did include information that a diver was unable to remove his weights despite the efforts of two people to do this. Is it possible you confused the two threads?

In any event, both threads include the fact that the divers were so very overweighted that they were unable to get to the surface and stay there. I have been thinking for quite some time that the single greatest failure we have in scuba instruction can be found in the fact that so many of our divers are so grossly overweighted when they dive.

Again I appolagize. I heard this from someone that was onshore recently and did not post it up, as it didn't seem to fundamentaly change the discussion at the time. I certainly agree with you on the overweighting issue.

 

[DandyDon]

I haven't read all of today's posts but I did notice a reference to my statements about weight ditching. It does seem that most dead divers found still have weights secured. :depressed:

It wouldn't have been me ... I'm predominantly a cold-water diver. Folks who advocate weight ditching at depth tend to be warm-water divers.

I have mentioned the importance of being prepared to ditch weights on the surface in an emergency many times in other threads, not here I don't think, but Ken (the LA Instructor who also works dead diver investigations) made a strong case a few months ago for ditching them at depth - discussing a Monterrey CA accident, pretty cool water I think. He suggested that the odds are much better if the diver can be found quickly for treatment even after a rapid ascent than unconscious divers sinking. I believe he said if nothing else, remove weights and hold them so they'll be dropped if you lose consciousness.

Muscle memory and practice helps of course, and my bud & I drill on ditching the first dive of any trip.

 

[markmantei]

It wouldn't have been me ... I'm predominantly a cold-water diver. Folks who advocate weight ditching at depth tend to be warm-water divers.

There's a tremendous difference between ditching 8-lbs of weight used to offset a 3/2 wetsuit vs 32 lbs used to offset a drysuit and 400 gram thinsulate undergarment.. Of course, these are more or less at the extremes of the bell curve, and there are numerous combinations in between ... but the fact is that the more buoyant you are, the greater the risk of injury. And, from what I've seen over the past decade, DCS really isn't the significant concern here ... it's the potential for a fatal embolism. Someone who's not paying attention to their air is also the type of person who ... in a moment of significant stress ... will forget to keep their airway open. This is particularly true in the case of a person who hasn't any air to breathe. This isn't a person who's going to calmly remember what they were told once in their OW class and act on it ... particularly a skill that they never even once got a chance to practice.

Which brings us to another question ... if buoyant ascents are so "safe", why doesn't anyone include them in the skills taught in OW class? The answer is because they're not safe, and no agency wants to deal with that sort of liability. The NAUI OW manual includes a picture of someone standing on the bottom, calmly holding their weight belt off to the side as though they are prepared to drop it. That picture really bothers me, because it leaves the impression that this is a legitimate method of self-rescue. And if that were the case, then NAUI should include it in their OW curriculum ... which they do not.

The fact is, it's not a legitimate method of self-rescue ... it's a last act of desperation ... something you do when the only other choice is certain death. If you have reached this point, you have already proven yourself incapable of following your training, or of thinking through a more rational solution ... because you have gotten past several other choices that would have resulted in getting you to the surface much more safely.

What are those choices? In (my) order of preference, they are ...

1. Don't begin your dive without first giving some thought to the question "Do I have enough air to do this dive?" ... and preferably ascertaining that, in fact, you do.
2. Establish depth and time parameters that would put you back on the surface well ahead of your reserve air supply ... put those parameters firmly in your head, and stick to them.
3. Weight yourself so that in an emergency you can perform a controlled emergency swimming ascent (which you DID practice in OW), and once on the surface consider ditching your weights so that you will remain there.
4. Monitor your air as you're supposed to ... don't allow yourself to get "distracted" ... and for goodness sakes, don't depend on someone else to monitor it for you.
5. Dive with a reliable dive buddy ... one you can count on to be there if somehow you should be faced with an OOA situation.
6. Remembering that if you're out of air, chances are pretty good your buddy won't have a lot to spare, carry a redundant air supply.

The fact is that a diver who has properly planned and prepared for their dive should never be faced with a decision to have to drop weights underwater. If you've reached that point, you've already gotten past several safety decisions that could have prevented you from being in that situation. If you survive the experience, it would be a great time to ask yourself if maybe ... just maybe ... you're taking scuba diving too casually to consider yourself a safe diver ... and either change your ways or find something else to do with your recreational time ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Couldn't agree more Bob, and sorry again for mis-attributing the quote to you.

That said, if everything else has failed, better to be injured on the surface than stuck at depth OOA. Last resort yes, never I'm not so sure.