Not so sure about the rec diving community not supporting annual check-outs . . . more and more, I am seeing requirements for dives within the past year, or you go through a check-out with a DM / instructor. Not sure how the medical and training certs could be encouraged, though.
DMs and Instructors receive no training in how to conduct an intelligent checkout, all they know to do is replicate the entry level course skills.
No ... I think there's a more practical reason ... and that boils down to why we dive.
Scientific divers dive for work ... diving is one of the tools of their job. They're performing tasks that are part of their career, and for which they're getting paid. There's a whole mentality and motivation behind it that helps them determine how much time, money and effort is worth investing in their training.
Recreational divers dive for fun ... diving is just something they do in their spare time ... and in most cases, it's one of many things they do in their spare time. There's a whole different mentality and motivation behind it that helps them determine how much time, money and effort is worth investing in their training.
I believe that insufficient time, money and effort is usually invested in recreational diving ... and a significant percentage of diving accidents can be directly attributed to people diving above their training and experience level. But I think it would be difficult to apply scientific diving standards to the recreational community as much because of the motivation and mentality as because of the costs involved.
Just like the differences between recreational and commercial diving, you're comparing apples to organgutans ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
We have a system that works and that has resulted in a much better safety record than any of the other diving communities. The recreational community can learn from what we have done or can continue to po-po it and die ... it is their choice. BTW: science divers are not paid to dive, that is entirely voluntary and any diver can refuse to dive at any time, for any reason without loss of pay or anything else.
I would personally prefer to see Diver Master's and Instructors have to annually certify rather than the divers they certify. Maybe there is something like this already (I am neither a DM or Inst). But I think improving and enforcing the caliber of instruction will result in better divers that require no such annual re-certification.
I'd prefer to see standards raised so the DMs and Instructors are better trained and qualified to begin with, re-qualifying to today's low standards if kinda closing the barn door long after the horses are gone.
Ken,
I remember your discussions on the thread mentioned and the rather direct attacks to your reasoning. Anyone who thinks OOA is not a serious situation has not been confronted with it or is too arrogant. I have over 1000 dives and never ran out of air but have come close several times. I remember each one and have learned valuable lessons from each one. Each lesson reminded me that I never want to be in that position and that if I am I definitely want to keep my wits about me.
...
There was a time when just about every dive ended in an OOA ascent, or something very close to it. I fail to see what the big deal is.
Don,
Agreed, OOA is very serious and should be treated as such. We can't breath water.
As far as weight ditching, I believe it was NWGratefulDiver that posted there are countless threads where a diver failed to ditch weight. I think that in large part the issue is training and practice related. How often do any of us practice weight ditching? I know I do so only in the pool, which is probably less often than I should (weights are a major pain to replace on a zeagle BC). Once the situation has reached a panic state the diver does not seem to even consider weight ditching. It needs to be a conditioned response.
That said, my admittedly poor information points to at least some weight being ditched late in the rescue. My understanding was that there was difficulty in removing weight, although I wasn't there.
It seems to me that weight ditching is easier if done by the diver and/or the buddy, as they know, or should know, the equipment configuration (weight belt, integrated weight, removal method for integrated weight, how much weight is where, etc.) At the time of the resuce, the rescue diver may not know this, and if vis is essentially 0, finding and releasing the weight by feel will obviously be more difficult.
I disagree, OOA should not be a big deal, it is easy to handle, it is only a big deal because divers are not trained to really deal with it and are specifically taught to not practice the skills they need to deal with an OOA situation, e.g., buddy assisted assents and CESAs.
OOA is only serious because the people who run OOA are exactly the people who generally don't remember enough of their training or have the presence of mind to handle it correctly.
The actual problem "I don't have any more air" has two easy solutions. #1 is very safe. #2 is only slightly less safe.
- Share air with your buddy and surface.
- Correct.
2. Do an Out of Air Ascent. At the surface, orally inflate your BC and ditch weights if necessary to retain positive buoyancy.
Because ditching weights on a no-deco dive ensures that the diver will:
- Arrive on the surface
- Stay there
While ditching weights may make controlling your ascent speed more difficult depending on exposure protection, when the brown stuff hits the fan, "bent" is far preferable to "dead."
flots
Controlling ascent speed after ditching weights is another thing that recreational divers are not taught and don't practice, so how could anyone expect them to be able to do it? It is not a big deal, but it does take time and effort to teach.
It wouldn't have been me ... I'm predominantly a cold-water diver. Folks who advocate weight ditching at depth tend to be warm-water divers.
I spent most of my life as a cold water diver and I've always been in favor of leaving lead behind. In fact, I have always made it a policy for all of my students, past and present, that if they ever drop their belt I will happily replace it for them. I have had to do so a few times.
There's a tremendous difference between ditching 8-lbs of weight used to offset a 3/2 wetsuit vs 32 lbs used to offset a drysuit and 400 gram thinsulate undergarment.. Of course, these are more or less at the extremes of the bell curve, and there are numerous combinations in between ... but the fact is that the more buoyant you are, the greater the risk of injury.
If you have been taught and you have practiced a flare and and exhalation it is a non-issue. From what I've seen there's bunch of people who have never done it and never taught it standing about saying how it's too dangerous, rather than consulting with those of us who have been teaching buoyant ascents for many decades with complete safety.
And, from what I've seen over the past decade, DCS really isn't the significant concern here ... it's the potential for a fatal embolism. Someone who's not paying attention to their air is also the type of person who ... in a moment of significant stress ... will forget to keep their airway open.
Once again, it's just a matter of having enough time in the class.
This is particularly true in the case of a person who hasn't any air to breathe. This isn't a person who's going to calmly remember what they were told once in their OW class and act on it ... particularly a skill that they never even once got a chance to practice.
Now we're getting to the root problem ... "a skill that they never even once got a chance to practice."
Which brings us to another question ... if buoyant ascents are so "safe", why doesn't anyone include them in the skills taught in OW class?
Whatcha mean not anyone? I do, I know plenty of folks in the science community who teach it.
The answer is because they're not safe, and no agency wants to deal with that sort of liability. The NAUI OW manual includes a picture of someone standing on the bottom, calmly holding their weight belt off to the side as though they are prepared to drop it. That picture really bothers me, because it leaves the impression that this is a legitimate method of self-rescue. And if that were the case, then NAUI should include it in their OW curriculum ... which they do not.
It is a legitimate method of self rescue and it should be taught and practiced.
The fact is, it's not a legitimate method of self-rescue ... it's a last act of desperation ... something you do when the only other choice is certain death.
For most folks that's not the issue, the cost of the belt and lead are the issue ... really worth drowning for, eh?
If you have reached this point, you have already proven yourself incapable of following your training, or of thinking through a more rational solution ... because you have gotten past several other choices that would have resulted in getting you to the surface much more safely.
I agree with you there, never play a king when a duce'll do.
What are those choices? In (my) order of preference, they are ...
1. Don't begin your dive without first giving some thought to the question "Do I have enough air to do this dive?" ... and preferably ascertaining that, in fact, you do.
2. Establish depth and time parameters that would put you back on the surface well ahead of your reserve air supply ... put those parameters firmly in your head, and stick to them.
3. Weight yourself so that in an emergency you can perform a controlled emergency swimming ascent (which you DID practice in OW), and once on the surface consider ditching your weights so that you will remain there.
4. Monitor your air as you're supposed to ... don't allow yourself to get "distracted" ... and for goodness sakes, don't depend on someone else to monitor it for you.
5. Dive with a reliable dive buddy ... one you can count on to be there if somehow you should be faced with an OOA situation.
6. Remembering that if you're out of air, chances are pretty good your buddy won't have a lot to spare, carry a redundant air supply.
I agree with you list, I just feel that it is too short and should include a buoyant ascent option.
The fact is that a diver who has properly planned and prepared for their dive should never be faced with a decision to have to drop weights underwater. If you've reached that point, you've already gotten past several safety decisions that could have prevented you from being in that situation. If you survive the experience, it would be a great time to ask yourself if maybe ... just maybe ... you're taking scuba diving too casually to consider yourself a safe diver ... and either change your ways or find something else to do with your recreational time ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Actually knowing how to comfortably perform a buoyant ascent has saved my bacon twice that I can remember. Neither case was OOA, both were failures of those crappy thread-through airplane type buckles that I now refuse to use.
