Apocalypse Rebreather

[padiscubapro]

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3. I also don't see how the issue of O2 cell reliability is any different on this potential rebreather or any other unit. Supposedly they have some cell improvements, but it's pretty safe to say that all rebreather divers must be aware of O2 cell failures. Would you stay on the loop of a meg/rEvo/HH... if the electronics told you the PPO2 was bad?

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it depends..I would first do a loop flush and see if the sensors are working... if they arent. I'll run semi-closed.. DOnt need electronics for that.. if they are working I would try and manually control the po2... the last think I will do is switch to open circuit..

 

[Brad_Horn]

As far as the Apoc, something smells fishy about the whole thing to me. I've heard so many stories from both pro and con fanatics, other manufacturers, I just don't know what to believe. There are times when I wonder if it could be the good old boy's club ganging up on a newcomer and other times I have to agree it's looking like it's turning out to be a scam. sigh...

Good point, real bitch when a rebreather is formally tested prior to customers getting it. Yeah, they likely shouldn't have taken deposits for orders until they had everything certified but that is as you say buyer beware. Does make one think a bit though, when at that end of the scale it takes a couple of years for CE certification why they didn't shortcut the process and just get a PPE cert to get the CE marking.

Compare the FMECA and design validation reports openly published by DL at Deep Life Ltd: Functional Safety Design Services with those published by other manufacturers.
From the looks of their last release it looks like one of the 3 rebreathers has acheived the CE certification to 14143:2003, so things still seem to be ticking over.

I've noticed most of the information trickling out of deeplife the last few months has been related to the BOV. It wouldn't surprise me if the BOV became the main product and the Apoc becomes a sidenote.

Doubt it.

Though until other BOVs start to match its performance and specs I wouldn't be surprised to gradually see more kicking around on other units. IIRC its the only BOV currently CE'd for use on mixed gas to 100m that can be bought as an independent item.

1. To my knowledge, it operates on RF with the pods. RF, is pretty reliable underwater, but I don't want my BOV to be pretty reliable.

All other things being equal, its a binary solution. Your either on the loop or your off it! As long as its reliable in both states, or when changing states is it really an issue?

The Apoc is designed for recreational diving, it ain't designed for working dives. One ought to still carry an independent supply of bailout gas anyway. Note the other 2 CCR that DL have designed are designed for working dives and use the same ALVBOV...

Plus what happens when interference is generated from my HID or scooter? Or someone else's?

Nothing!

The electronics have been tested against the interference from UW welding and the design meets all of the EMS, EMI, ESD and Mag Field requirements. Deep Life Ltd: Design Submission for Open Revolution
iCCR test diving off Sydney this year also included wrapping a shark shield device around the pods with no interference other then zapping the heck out of the diver, the unit worked fine.

2. what if it bails me out to the wrong gas? An empty cylinder? A bad 1st stage? What if the LP hose to the BOV blows, and it startles me, and my heart rate and respiratory rate go up? Or the dozens of other potential issues I can't think of?

And those issues don't occur on any other CCR! Get real.
Just carry the same independent slung or backmounted bailout cylinder and regulator perhaps!

If your bailed out to OC and you have no OC for whatever reason, you can still force the unit into CC mode by holding the BOV lever over with one hand. It will just be logging that it notes the gas your breathing is not considered safe along with the details of what it is measuring at that time.

3. Even if it works perfectly, how does it know if conditions are unsafe?

How do you know the loop gas is safe on the unit your diving!
The oxygen cells are also slightly different to that currently used in other units as they have been stripped to the bare minimum. The unit also carries out onboard checking of the cells for quite a number of failure modes.

To have a safe level of automation on a rebreather requires testing and engineering like to what NASA does with the PLISS backpacks. And none of us are paying a million dollars for a rebreather.

Have a read of some of the R&D done by DL over the past 10 years. Then add up what you figure it would cost to do that!

1. A decent point. I think I would preferred a wired system. However, as far as I know if the BOV loses communications, the result is not inoperable equipment, but rather a normal BOV.

A normal open curcuit 2nd stage might be a better way of wording it, rather then a normal BOV. If the comms are lost, then the ALVBOV bails you out to open circuit as you can't know your ppo2 in the loop.
Once bailed until it regains signal it won't let you lock the BOV back in CC mode, though you can force it there one handed if required. If you look on their website, there is a video showing this effect, simulated by moving the ALVBOV away from the PPo2 pod which is in a sealed pressure housing.

Regards
Brad

 

[lemon]

Try as hard as you want to engineer the idiot out of the rebreather, all you'll do is engineer a better idiot. A lesson we might already be seeing with the Posiedon MK6. Here's a device with revolutionary engineering to make it "safer' and several people have already died on it. Not because it's a bad design - but I suspect because people approach it with the attitude "Bill Stone designed that thing. Its the safest rebreather, you can't die on it." Only to make incredible errors and ignore blatant warning signs the unit is flashing.

One person has died on a Mk6 after ignoring the failed pre-dive check. I'm sure the same can be said of most every unit whether the pre-dive checks were automated or not.

How many mk6 divers do you dive with? I don't know of a single rebreather diver that says you can't die on a rebreather. What you suspect and reality may not be the same thing.

I love how most of the people who get all worked up about the mk6 either don't fully understand it or don't dive it.

 

[Tienuts]

The electronics have been tested against the interference from UW welding and the design meets all of the EMS, EMI, ESD and Mag Field requirements. Deep Life Ltd: Design Submission for Open Revolution
iCCR test diving off Sydney this year also included wrapping a shark shield device around the pods with no interference other then zapping the heck out of the diver, the unit worked fine.

Brad you're a funny guy. You couldn't get these units operating at DEMA when we stopped by your booth to check this thing out. I have real confidence in them.

And those issues don't occur on any other CCR! Get real.
Just carry the same independent slung or backmounted bailout cylinder and regulator perhaps!

If your bailed out to OC and you have no OC for whatever reason, you can still force the unit into CC mode by holding the BOV lever over with one hand. It will just be logging that it notes the gas your breathing is not considered safe along with the details of what it is measuring at that time.

The difference is, the computer between my ears knows the state of my current rig, to include failures or and gas supplies. The ALBOV doesn't.

How do you know the loop gas is safe on the unit your diving!

It's done by validating your cells by flushing with a known gas. Something the ALBOV doesn't do.

Have a read of some of the R&D done by DL over the past 10 years. Then add up what you figure it would cost to do that!

I've read a lot of stuff from DL. Most of it says "we expect delivery soon." And lots of other BS posted by our mutual friend. So you'll forgive me if I have trouble believing much of what DL says.

A normal open curcuit 2nd stage might be a better way of wording it, rather then a normal BOV. If the comms are lost, then the ALVBOV bails you out to open circuit as you can't know your ppo2 in the loop.
Once bailed until it regains signal it won't let you lock the BOV back in CC mode, though you can force it there one handed if required. If you look on their website, there is a video showing this effect, simulated by moving the ALVBOV away from the PPo2 pod which is in a sealed pressure housing.

Regards
Brad

I watched the video. Thats what I want to be doing in a cave when things are going wrong, it holding my bov valve.

Don't get me wrong, it's a neat concept. In perfect world. But you guys seem to forget in the real world, things break. Things don't do what they were designed. They fail. And like I posted before, when you increase the confidence of the idiot by telling him you have the safest rebreather, there will end up being many more accidents. Like I said before, look what's going on with the MK6.

 

[Tienuts]

One person has died on a Mk6 after ignoring the failed pre-dive check. I'm sure the same can be said of most every unit whether the pre-dive checks were automated or not.

How many mk6 divers do you dive with? I don't know of a single rebreather diver that says you can't die on a rebreather. What you suspect and reality may not be the same thing.

I love how most of the people who get all worked up about the mk6 either don't fully understand it or don't dive it.

You quoted my post, did you actually read it? You completely missed my point. I'm not knocking the MK6. And I do know someone who dives one. And of course any rebreather can be dangerous.

What I am saying, is if I tell the masses something is the safest, some people in that group will become overly confident, and fail to do the most basic of things. Like ignoring battery warnings.

I stand corrected on the second fatality, as it looks like he was off the loop at the time.

 

[Brad_Horn]

Brad you're a funny guy. You couldn't get these units operating at DEMA when we stopped by your booth to check this thing out. I have real confidence in them.

Wrong end of the stick, mate! The issue at DEMA was they were working and were locking the loop as there was insufficient oxygen content in the loop. Additionally when not being actively breathed on, the electronics go to sleep. The same unit I demo'd I had just spent the week diving and is shown on the OSEL website fully functional being try-dived in a pool after the show one evening!
After the second day they were switched to a constant on mode.

The difference is, the computer between my ears knows the state of my current rig, to include failures or and gas supplies. The ALBOV doesn't.

Right, so all of a sudden when you dive an Apoc the diver doesn't know the state of the rig to include failures and gas supplies! Get real.

It's done by validating your cells by flushing with a known gas. Something the ALBOV doesn't do.

True!

But then neither does your DSV! Nothing stopping the diver on an Apoc doing the same, and I think you will find its recommended.

What about the state of the gas in the loop when your not in the instance of validating the cells by flushing with a known gas?
What about the state of the gas other then the oxygen content of the loop both Helium and CO2....

I've read a lot of stuff from DL. Most of it says "we expect delivery soon." And lots of other BS posted by our mutual friend. So you'll forgive me if I have trouble believing much of what DL says.

Leaving timeframes out of the equation which yes I agree wholeheartedly they have an issue with. Prob too many engineers and not enough sales staff in the mix, but I don't personally think thats a bad thing for the industry...

You actually said "to have a safe level of automation on a rebreather requires testing and engineering like to what NASA does with the PLISS backpacks. And none of us are paying a million dollars for a rebreather." Which just happens to be exactly what DL have done. Have a serious look at the detail of information they present under the functional safety tab on the left of Deep Life Ltd: Functional Safety Design Services

You know in the past 3 odd years, I have heard a lot of negatively about what DL have said and done. BUT, I haven't yet seen anyone actually publish proof that their R&D is wrong or in error. In fact rather the opposite you would struggle to find other manufacturers who have even done half of the development and proof of concept testing. The greater majority of that testing DL have freely and openly published.

I watched the video. Thats what I want to be doing in a cave when things are going wrong, it holding my bov valve.

You dive alpine in caves with insufficient OC bailout, huh! Your call.

Me, I think in a cave or wreck when recreational diving I would just let it do its thing and exit on my OC bailout or work out why its bailed me on a safe to breathe OC gas and resolve the issue if I can do so.

Don't get me wrong, it's a neat concept. In perfect world. But you guys seem to forget in the real world, things break. Things don't do what they were designed. They fail. And like I posted before, when you increase the confidence of the idiot by telling him you have the safest rebreather, there will end up being many more accidents. Like I said before, look what's going on with the MK6.

When things are professionally designed to minimise the risk of failure, they seem to fail a whole lot less. There are just a few differences between the Apoc and Mk6, a complete functional safety audit to 61508 is an obvious one not to mention the auto-bailout.

I do agree with you though despite not having had any breakage or failure issues for the past year. I won't have made up my mind about the safety of the design concept and its robustness in use for likely another couple of years active diving on it but that said its streets ahead of anything else I am aware of.

Regards
Brad

 

[M_Bipartitus]

A normal open curcuit 2nd stage might be a better way of wording it, rather then a normal BOV. If the comms are lost, then the ALVBOV bails you out to open circuit as you can't know your ppo2 in the loop.
Once bailed until it regains signal it won't let you lock the BOV back in CC mode, though you can force it there one handed if required. If you look on their website, there is a video showing this effect, simulated by moving the ALVBOV away from the PPo2 pod which is in a sealed pressure housing.

Regards
Brad

I see. Though that's more of a specific implementation choice on this unit rather than requisite property of a general automated BOV, if other manufacturers were to build their own.

 

[ruiner]

Let's add Apex 3 to that, that was expected to come out, what is it now, 5 years ago?

as far as the Apoc, there is so much mud slinging, it's hard to know who to believe. It may yet come to pass or it may never.

g

I could be wrong here on time scale, but I recall that Poseidon took deposits on MKv6 about couple years before it hit the streets (it was 600EUR if recall right). I don't have very long time perspective on this, but for me it seems that 90% of the rebreathers announced before the launch gets delayed several years.

One week to wait and see if the 11th (or is it 12th) iteration of CE testing will produce results...

 

[Tienuts]

Brad, you can't argue with the simple philosophy in CCR, laypeople will injure themselves more when they rely on automation. Thats what this is target at right? The layperson? I don't think as many apoc divers will know the status of their rig.

You know why we'll never have flying cars? Because most people can barely drive in 2 dimensions. Adding a 3rd would be mass chaos. Like I said before, try to engineer the idiot out of the unit, and all you've done is engineered a better idiot. Same thing with this. Making it affordable to the masses, and promoting it as safe opens it up for many people who probably shouldn't be diving CCR. I see people who shouldn't be diving OC all the time, who would love to get their hands on a CCR.

Wrong end of the stick, mate! The issue at DEMA was they were working and were locking the loop as there was insufficient oxygen content in the loop. Additionally when not being actively breathed on, the electronics go to sleep. The same unit I demo'd I had just spent the week diving and is shown on the OSEL website fully functional being try-dived in a pool after the show one evening!
After the second day they were switched to a constant on mode.

Thats total BS and you know it. It wasn't shutting down due to anything - you couldn't get the bov to communicate with the pod, and there were 4 of us watching.

You dive alpine in caves with insufficient OC bailout, huh! Your call.

Of course not. But you are also taught to conserve bailout and stay on the loop when possible, you know that.

You know in the past 3 odd years, I have heard a lot of negatively about what DL have said and done. BUT, I haven't yet seen anyone actually publish proof that their R&D is wrong or in error. In fact rather the opposite you would struggle to find other manufacturers who have even done half of the development and proof of concept testing. The greater majority of that testing DL have freely and openly published.

You should be commended for your loyalty to the project. I really hope I am wrong, and the unit is a success, and that it promotes and increases rebreather safety. That would be great for the industry. If I am wrong, I'll be the first to man up and apologize. But I don't think I am. Only time will tell.

My personal opinion is DL is putting too much faith in the technology and forgetting about the human elements, and thats what will cause problems. And not for the few reasons I can come up with, but for the hundreds of reasons we haven't thought of yet.

And the main problem which makes many people become 'detractors,' is because of the captain of your ship and his credibility. Alex Deas - Why we have a hard time believing his claims

Cheers,
Tony

 

[lemon]

Brad, you can't argue with the simple philosophy in CCR, laypeople will injure themselves more when they rely on automation.

i think there are pros and cons to both mCCR and eCCR but this statement above is a classic straw man fallacy.