Appropriate???

[beautybelow]

Although the over-all feeling on Scubaboard it seems is if you are a certified diver, you had absolutely better be able to dive without supervision, this is not so much the case in the real world of resort type recreational diving.

It is my opinion that if you are being paid to be in the water with customers you should be prepared to offer any assistance if needed. That goes from showing them a juvenile spotted drum to giving them another 2 lbs of weight if they need it for a safety stop. It's just the nature of the business the way I see it.

I don't think killing lionfish should be part of the dive.

 

[TSandM]

I know it has been covered before (as most everything HAS) but WHAT on earth do people think the DMs should be doing? Monitoring everyone's gas? Managing their buoyancy control? Using their magical third eye to spot any problems before they occur?

Diving really is a rather simple activity. You descend, swim around, and go up. Meanwhile, you monitor your gas supply and your deco status, and stay near your buddy. It's not complicated, and honestly, NO ONE can do it for you. If you can't perform those functions for yourself, you should be doing some kind of less challenging dive. (Honestly, this is one of the reasons that I'm dubious about Cozumel for brand new divers, because I found the currents at times quite unnerving, and I was far from novice when I went there. The difference is that I had the ability to cope with being unnerved.)

But it constantly baffles me, what it is that people think the DMs are supposed to do. I suppose that if someone is incapacitated through something completely unexpected, like a venomous sting or a heart attack or stroke, the DM may be the only person in the group with enough experience to perform a rescue. But is it going to be that big a deal if someone has to get his attention away from spearfishing? A good DM should be able to switch gears very quickly.

 

[Jim Baldwin]

I constantly tell my new student divers and those working on advanced certifications that they are responsible for their diving. Their bouoyancy, gas, deco status. Not the divemaster.

I have made a couple of thousand dives in Cozumel and have seen my share of new divers who had difficulites with staying off the coral or mataining themselves in the water column or trying to fight the currents. I have assisted these divers when I could as have the divemasters.

I do not believe that a DM in MX or anywhere else has a duty of care to provide personal one on one assistance when he is leading a group of 8 to 15 people. If he/she sees a problem and can respond that's great. A diver needing more weight, low of air, OOA. But it is always the diver and his buddy's responsibility to manage these things.

The exception would be if that DM has been hired by an individual. I have been both. I have hired a DM and been a paid DM. In both cases personal attention to the indiviudual was the priority.

In Cozumel all diving is drift diving and it is procedure for the divemaster to carry and shoot a marker buoy at the end of the diving.

Shooting a fish while looking for critters is fine. The fewer lionfish the better.

 

[herman]

I see this from a different perspective. I am assuming this was Coz so I am basing my response on that but other locations would be similar. First off, at least on Coz, the dive buoy/ SMB is only deployed at the end of the dive so there is no task loading as such during most of the dive and no lion fish to hunt once off the bottom. If anything, watching a group is easier while hanging from a line.
Secondly we need to define "hunting". Actual hunting means his/her was actively searching for the fish and does require a lot of attention and focus, maybe not the best idea for a DM, esp with a new diver with him. On the other hand, if he is just carrying a spear to dispatch any fish that happen to be easy to get to, then the amount of task loading is pretty minimal. I do not define that as hunting. It may have been different where you were but that was the case with the DMs I dove with in Coz this January.
If this was a case of SMB at the end and kill a lionfish if you happen on one, then I don't see this as much task loading at all and no reason for the DM not to, even with a new diver as long as the new diver was doing OK. Any DM worth having should be capable of judging how much attention the new diver needed in the first few minutes of the dive and would have acted accordingly.

 

[beautybelow]

Monitoring everyone's gas?

Yes, if the diver is relatively new and not familiar with the area/profile and being navigated back to the boat by the divemaster it wouldn't hurt to check how much air the divers have from time to time.

Managing their buoyancy control?

Again, if it is a new diver or a diver who hasn't been diving for quite a while I would expect to help them with more weight during the dive if needed.

Using their magical third eye to spot any problems before they occur?

I was taught to do this with the two eyes that I have and have never needed the magical one I have saved up for my new son. Luckily, he can't read yet and doesn't know anything about it.

Seriously though...I wonder how many people's expectations of divemasters has changed since their 20th dive...50th dive...100th dive...1,000th dive.

I think that some divemasters are the unsung heros of the dive industry. They take every type of diver you can imagine. New, old (literally and figuratively), experienced not experienced. People who know absolutely everything there is to know about diving until they let the air out of their BC. People who are scared but still want to do it...and so on and so on.

How easy would it be if divers never ever ended up in a situation that was beyond their ability? Very easy.

I would like a dollar for every diver I have thought shouldn't be here...why don't they just play golf? But it's my job to deal with them when they are there. You can't just say sorry buddy, you suck. Come back when you have it figured out. No, you have to get them through it.

The lionfish thing is for me a whole other argument though. Not really what this thread has turned in to.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

I find it fascinating reading the expectations or lack of expectations people have for DM's, guides and boat crew. Seems to me it is very different in different areas.

The standard process in most places we have done boat dives has been.

DM gives dive brief
DM ensures everyone has buddy pairing
DM ensures everyone indicates Ok when they hit the water
DM ensures everyone indicates OK at the bottom before commencing dive
DM signals part way into the dive to determine how much gas divers have so they can decide how the dive should proceed (shorter, longer, more challenging conditions)
DM points out interesting things
DM keeps an eye out for divers in trouble or causing trouble with creatures or coral

On the boat DM checks with diver to record their bottom time, remaining air and depth according to regulations.

I've never been in the water where there were 15 divers per DM. groups of 4 to 6 seem much more common in my experience.

Most places the first dive is really a "check out dive". After that dive we normally get told "You guys are fine you can do what you want on the next dive" We normally chose to follow the DM anyway since they know the sites and where the kewl stuff is. The DM's usually wind up bringing their cameras on subsequent dives and enjoy their dives with divers who don't need to be babysat.

People say that all divers should be competent when they get out of OW but the truth is many are not. In resort and tourist destinations the Dive Operators often have a Duty of Care for divers whose training and skill levels are beyond their control. People talk about cattle car diving and not wanting to be restricted to the herd diving situations. IMHO divers need to check what expectations and procedures are before they book. If you don't like the answers don't book!

Seems to me that if this operator's website and literature talked about DM's being available to make divers feel safe they should not have to pay for a personal DM to achieve that end.

 

[Ana]

It seems to me that a DM needs to devote his attention to the divers he is leading, and even handling the float can be a (minor) distraction. Add on the active seeking out and spearing of fish along the way, and I'd think that there was far too little attention being paid to the group at times.

Seems wrong to me, but maybe I'm being to critical.

If I have a choice I rather not have any guide, DM or whatever title they may give them.
So if this person is forced on my dive for whatever reason, it comes down to what is their role. Do I have to follow them? Do I have to end my dive when they decide?
If the answers to either one of those questions are yes, then that guy better be paying attention to me and whoever is with me, regardless if I need them or not.

If that person is diving because regulations require to have a guide/dm around with paying customers and it is just a matter of putting a check mark in a box, then this person can take a nap on the bottom for all I care, I won't be around to see it anyways.

 

[D_B]

both sides of this argument are right

you are responsible for the dives you do, or decide not to do

the (if a requirement) DM on a dive is responsible for being aware of the divers around him .. that does not have anything to do with babysitting, that has to do with being a DM in the first place, his training to be a DM, and being on that dive in more than a just being a diver capacity

(I did not see any reference that the new OW diver, or that anyone on that dive needed any babysitting ..)

 

[Krazytomdiver]

A SPEARGUN ON A DIVE BOAT??? Not on any dive boat(s) I'm responsible for as a dive master.
As for DM duties, they start hours before the dive ,everything in between,and hours after the dive. Just my experience as a senior dive guide working in Mexico to Nicaragua and the South Pacific.

"living life without a hard bottom"
KT

 

[g1138]

Reproduction rates between mammals and fish are quite different. A female lion fish can lay up to 15,000 eggs.

Poop. I forgot about that