Are hydros really necessary?

[mathauck0814]

Pretty sure it simply means "someone who tries to make money in diving" and nothing more. OP simply decided he wasn't the mythical scuba police.

This was all I was really getting at. There are (seemingly, from my understanding) three parties here.

1. The OP and his son who recognized that tanks were out of service.
2. The dive boat that the tanks were on.
3. The dive shop that the tanks came from.

It's unclear to me if 2&3 are the same thing from the OP, but let's just assume that they're the same company. The OP notified the crew. What was the crew supposed to do? What would have made all parties satisfied? Cancel the charter and make sure that the tanks got taken out of service? At the point where all parties involved knew that the tanks were out of service there was only one choice left to make: To dive or not to dive. It sounds like the OP chose to dive.

So if it was such a problem that it bothered you enough to post it online, why wasn't it enough of a problem to keep you out of the water? And if it's a PSA then why not name the shop so that their business hurts from their inability to follow the rules?

I love the soapbox mountaineers who proclaim, "I wouldn't dive". I call bull. You're on vacation and you know (probably better than most) how unlikely a tank failure is (especially one that is not currently being filled). You'd grumble about it, go diving and then post on scubaboard when you got home and had a few minutes ;-)

 

[underH2Oman]

(ii) No cylinder required to be retested by paragraph (e)(1)(i) of this section may be
charged or filled with a hazardous material and transported in commerce unless that cylinder has been inspected and retested in accordance with this section and the retester has marked the cylinder by stamping the date of retest, the cylinder retester identification number unless excepted under this section, and any other marking required by this section.

My understanding has always been that this is not regulation with criminal penalty. And transporting your own tanks for your own purpose does not fall within the purview of DOT. But I think we are in general agreement that it is pretty dumb and would violate the shop's insurance.

I think the definition of commerce is what you should consider. The way I read it-If you own and fill your own cylinders and drive to the local quarry you would fall under the intrastate commerce label as you are transporting hazardous goods.

Interstate commerce means trade, traffic, or transportation in the United States—
(1) Between a place in a State and a place outside of such State (including a place outside of the United States);
(2) Between two places in a State through another State or a place outside of the United States; or
(3) Between two places in a State as part of trade, traffic, or transportation originating or terminating outside the State or the United States.
Intrastate commerce means any trade, traffic, or transportation in any State which is not described in the term “interstate commerce.”

 

[captain]

I think the definition of commerce is what you should consider. The way I read it-If you own and fill your own cylinders and drive to the local quarry you would fall under the intrastate commerce label as you are transporting hazardous goods.

Interstate commerce means trade, traffic, or transportation in the United States—
(1) Between a place in a State and a place outside of such State (including a place outside of the United States);
(2) Between two places in a State through another State or a place outside of the United States; or
(3) Between two places in a State as part of trade, traffic, or transportation originating or terminating outside the State or the United States.
Intrastate commerce means any trade, traffic, or transportation in any State which is not described in the term “interstate commerce.”

More to the point, commerce is business, It can also be defined as a component of business which includes all activities, functions and institutions involved in transferring goods from producers to consumers.
Consumers pay money for goods, or services, in this case transportation. Me driving from point A to point B is not commerce no matter what I have with me, Someone paying me to drive tanks from point A to B is.
Interstate or intrastate just defines within what area the commerce (Business is being conducted) and which entity, federal or state regulates it.

 

[redacted]

I think the definition of commerce is what you should consider. The way I read it-If you own and fill your own cylinders and drive to the local quarry you would fall under the intrastate commerce label as you are transporting hazardous goods.

Interstate commerce means trade, traffic, or transportation in the United States—
(1) Between a place in a State and a place outside of such State (including a place outside of the United States);
(2) Between two places in a State through another State or a place outside of the United States; or
(3) Between two places in a State as part of trade, traffic, or transportation originating or terminating outside the State or the United States.
Intrastate commerce means any trade, traffic, or transportation in any State which is not described in the term “interstate commerce.”

Could you provide the reference for that definition. I suspect something has been left out.

When a 2 Y/O trades her doll with her 2 Y/O cousin is it intrastate commerce if they both live in the same state but interstate commerce if one is visiting from out of state?

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Could you provide the reference for that definition. I suspect something has been left out.

When a 2 Y/O trades her doll with her 2 Y/O cousin is it intrastate commerce if they both live in the same state but interstate commerce if one is visiting from out of state?

If you think that's bad, read Wickard v. Filburn, which is (shockingly, until you realize its twisted logic is the foundation of our present federal administrative behemoth) still good law.

Back on topic, we've been over this at great length in a recent thread: If you're not transporting the tanks as part of a business, the DOT regulations simply do not apply to you. Full stop.

I think I finally reached the conclusion (after more time with the CFR than I like to spend without billing the hours) that those regulations do not apply to a business that merely fills a tank brought to and conveyed from its site by the customer. But insurance and negligence law more or less mean you won't find a shop willing to ignore the hydro test rules, even if they're not directely applicable.

 

[Skooter]

Despite the arguments for or against hydrotesting every five years this exclusion from my insurance company guarantees that we follow the five year hydro test and annual inspection policy. I'm not willing to forfeit my liability insurance coverage for a cheap air fill.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Despite the arguments for or against hydrotesting every five years this exclusion from my insurance company guarantees that we follow the five year hydro test and annual inspection policy. I'm not willing to forfeit my liability insurance coverage for a cheap air fill.

View attachment 189434

Not that you'd want to pay to litigate the issue, but the "as required" is sloppy drafting by your insurance company's lawyers, unless the "requirement" is spelled out elsewhere in the policy.

 

[redacted]

If you think that's bad, read Wickard v. Filburn, which is (shockingly, until you realize its twisted logic is the foundation of our present federal administrative behemoth) still good law.

Back on topic, we've been over this at great length in a recent thread: If you're not transporting the tanks as part of a business, the DOT regulations simply do not apply to you. Full stop.

I think I finally reached the conclusion (after more time with the CFR than I like to spend without billing the hours) that those regulations do not apply to a business that merely fills a tank brought to and conveyed from its site by the customer. But insurance and negligence law more or less mean you won't find a shop willing to ignore the hydro test rules, even if they're not directely applicable.

And especially not when the shop charges $45. including transportation, VIS and fill, for that $15 hydro.

 

[lemke]

Does anyone have first hand experience being pulled over and receiving a fine for a tank in their possession? Do police officers have jurisdiction to ticket in that case? Do they receive training to inspect cylinders and are they carrying pressure gauges to ensure that contents are within acceptable ranges?

Feels like a red herring to me.

You'd be surprised what the Texas State Troopers can do. I've seen them on the side of the highway with portable scales weighing a vehicle and trailer before.

There are other laws they enforce you don't think about such as how you transport portable diesel or gasoline tanks, trailer widths, blah blah blah.

I have no first hand experience about "tank checks" but I swore I read it somewhere... oh well, carry on!

 

[kelemvor]

(ii) No cylinder required to be retested by paragraph (e)(1)(i) of this section may be
charged or filled with a hazardous material and transported in commerce unless that cylinder has been inspected and retested in accordance with this section and the retester has marked the cylinder by stamping the date of retest, the cylinder retester identification number unless excepted under this section, and any other marking required by this section.

My understanding has always been that this is not regulation with criminal penalty. And transporting your own tanks for your own purpose does not fall within the purview of DOT. But I think we are in general agreement that it is pretty dumb and would violate the shop's insurance.

Is air or even nitrox a hazardous material?