Are hydros really necessary?

[Scared Silly]

Some thoughts for you. Here are three quotes from your posts:

My son (also an instructor, works at a shop at home) brought this to the attention of one of the crew. The crewguy shrugged as if to say "so... what do you want?" He then specifically asked if my son wanted a different tank, and when we explained that we were more concerned about the shop not following proper safety procedures, the crewguy joked that he promised if the tank failed while we were diving the shop wouldn't hold us responsible.

I felt like I was being punked, and looked around for the cameras. This had to be a joke... but all the cameras were sitting in the bucket. No one was pointing one at me.

To those claiming that I just "looked the other way", am being hypocritical and unprofessional, and that in general I am failing to act on my duty to notify the appropriate people about this situation: you are way off base, and the fact that you have attacked me personally in this forum says a lot about your character.

If some of you thought I should have created a big commotion over the out-of-hydro tanks on the day I saw them, I will respectfully disagree. I suspected (as many of you have confirmed) that this was a serious violation of safety standards, as I know it is on the west coast where I live and teach. So before acting on what I found, I thought I should take a few days to gather information and act accordingly.

So here is why myself (and others) took a bit of issue with your posts. First an instructor, you should know basic hydro rules. So to be honest you should have never needed to ask in first place. I might understand it if your were inquiring about another country. But the the DOT rules are federal and apply to all states (territories and other protectorates not with standing). Yeah there is some back and forth on commerce and what not but that is moot.

Second you state you felted punked by the crew. Were the crew also operating the boat or was there a captain on board? The captain might not know about the out of hydro cylinders and if the CG boarded the ship he is one holding the bag. I would think the captain might want to know.

The last time I got BS response from a crew member the I talked with the owner afterwards. And when there was a mishap (different trip) which was our fault but involved the crew we had a chat first with the captain then the crew. It was a great learning experience for all and handled totally professionally.

Third, you made no mention of your intent until this post several days later:

My plan was to:

1. Solicit advice from those with more experience around the country by posting here. This has been accomplished.

2. Notify those that need to be notified.

I still stand by my earlier post, when I claimed I was not withholding any "secret" information. Anyone looking at those tanks can see the same thing I see. If others aren't educated or trained properly to recognize hydro dates (really?? all my students know this... you look right at the hydro when attaching a reg) that really is not something I can fix.

As such folks could only go off the information you provided. Further, while many do try to give the benefit of the doubt, this is an internet forum and things can go sideways very quickly. I do think that to be the case here. So while it was good to that you contacted PADI did you ever talk with the captain or shop? I would have probably started there. In the end like you, I too stand by my posts.

 

[Six Feet Under]

This apathy towards maintaining air cylinders reminds me of when I used to play tournament paintball... people would routinely try to connive their way into us (as a field) letting them fill their cylinders that were out of hydro. They were filled to much higher pressures than scuba tanks, too.

Maybe I'm alone in this, but I'm not exactly comfortable doing a face-first dive into a low bunker with 68ci of air compressed to 4500 or 5000psi between my shoulder and the bottom of my jaw when the tank it's contained in hasn't been tested to prove it's still in good enough shape to contain said pressures.

Same with scuba tanks. Not only are you risking injury if something happens and the tank explodes (granted, a less likely occurrence than the same thing happening to a paintball tank because most people don't throw their scuba tanks all over hard-packed dirt and turf covered concrete for hours a day), but if it happened at depth, that would not be a situation I'd want to find myself in.


Y'all can do what you want. I'll continue to hydro and VIP my tanks as soon as they're due for it, so I don't end up like my user name. Thankfully, all but one of them are due for VIP in March so I'll just use the rest of 'em until then and then they'll all have the same date.

 

[NAM001]

I believe youare technically right about the hdro and personal use. Lots of threads on this topic.... A hydro is cheap.. 3-4 usd a year. I may not be so concerned about my steel tank but an AL tank could be someting else. One other thought. For shops that do vis's by tipping the tank upside down to see if anything comes out and then putting on a sticker, wouldnt it be just the smart thing to do to get a test every 5 years to cover yourself. I have never found a outdated tank when I dove and rented tanks. I have foud 5 n a group of 30 al tanks with cracks in them that you can put a pencil lead tip in. once again I dive steel.

DOT requires tanks to be hydrostatically inspected and certified for commercial transportation of gas. If you're not transporting tanks for commercial purposes, my understanding is that you're outside of their jurisdiction. If you have your own filling station (given that most of the "rules" that are enforced about tank maintenance are to protect the person doing the fill) then go with what you're comfortable with. If you need to use someone else's then tank maintenance is as necessary as they require it to be.

 

[GrainDane]

The Department of Transportation requires any tank, scuba or otherwise to be tested every 5 years (with unrelated exceptions). You can look up specific rulings on ctcseminars.com that's the easiest place I was able to find it.
So no joe blow will probably not be fined when he's filling his tank. However, DOT specifies in its ruling that any tank transported in commerce is subject to the HMR (hazardous materials register) aka 49 CFR ( code of federal regulations ) and therefore must be tested at 5 year intervals. This means that if you drive with your cylinder on ANY public roadway and I knew 99.9% of people do, you are IN commerce and must have your tank tested.

this is one thing I'll never understand about this industry. Why would you chance killing yourself or someone else to save 25-30 dollars every 5 years. You're breaking the law and any fine, if you survive the accident, will be much more than you could possibly ever spend on hydrotesting.

 

[redacted]

The Department of Transportation requires any tank, scuba or otherwise to be tested every 5 years (with unrelated exceptions). You can look up specific rulings on ctcseminars.com that's the easiest place I was able to find it.
So no joe blow will probably not be fined when he's filling his tank. However, DOT specifies in its ruling that any tank transported in commerce is subject to the HMR (hazardous materials register) aka 49 CFR ( code of federal regulations ) and therefore must be tested at 5 year intervals. This means that if you drive with your cylinder on ANY public roadway and I knew 99.9% of people do, you are IN commerce and must have your tank tested.

this is one thing I'll never understand about this industry. Why would you chance killing yourself or someone else to save 25-30 dollars every 5 years. You're breaking the law and any fine, if you survive the accident, will be much more than you could possibly ever spend on hydrotesting.

Do you have an authoritative reference that indicates "public roadway" equals "commerce"? If not, your reasoning pretty much falls apart.

 

[Rayallyn]

My question to you as an instructor is one on liability. As an instructor or even a DM if you are knowledgeable of the tanks being out of date and an accident happens especially after you mentioned the discrepancy to the crew could you not be held liable if a lawsuit ensued? Lawyers usually go after everyone and anyone they can.

 

[GrainDane]

Do you have an authoritative reference that indicates "public roadway" equals "commerce"? If not, your reasoning pretty much falls apart.

I stand corrected. The Department of Transportation NOT ONLY requires the cylinder to be hydrotested if transported on any public roadway (in commerce) but also if it is NEVER transported in commerce. Here is a quote from DOT. "Any cylinder marked to certify that it conforms with the HMR must be maintained in accordance with applicable specification requirements whether or not it is transported in commerce at any particular time."

The link to the letter of interpretation is below. Keep in mind, letters of interpretation are incorporated by reference into DOT's requirements for cylinders.

Right Here -----> Updates and Interpretations that affect Cylinder testing Click on 'Cylinders "not transported in commerce"

 

[BRT]

I stand corrected. The Department of Transportation NOT ONLY requires the cylinder to be hydrotested if transported on any public roadway (in commerce) but also if it is NEVER transported in commerce. Here is a quote from DOT. "Any cylinder marked to certify that it conforms with the HMR must be maintained in accordance with applicable specification requirements whether or not it is transported in commerce at any particular time."


The link to the letter of interpretation is below. Keep in mind, letters of interpretation are incorporated by reference into DOT's requirements for cylinders.

Right Here -----> Updates and Interpretations that affect Cylinder testing Click on 'Cylinders "not transported in commerce"

So if the DOT guy that wrote that letter is correct we had all best get our tanks hydroed before the 5 years are up. Otherwise we are breaking the law by having a tank that is out of hydro. And if we ship them off to be hydroed when they are out of hydro we are really breaking the law. He does mention that private parties transporting cylinders for their own purposes are not covered by the law. I think he is full of it.

 

[GrainDane]

So if the DOT guy that wrote that letter is correct we had all best get our tanks hydroed before the 5 years are up. Otherwise we are breaking the law by having a tank that is out of hydro. And if we ship them off to be hydroed when they are out of hydro we are really breaking the law. He does mention that private parties transporting cylinders for their own purposes are not covered by the law. I think he is full of it.

That is not the law BRT. If your tank is out of hydro, you can transport an empty cylinder to be tested. The above link states that the law applies to private parties, with the exception of the PRE-Transportation law.

In the letter of interpretation there is a reference to shipping (via UPS for example). In this case, you ARE breaking the law if you offer a cylinder for transportation if it does not have a current hydrotest. Keep in mind the hydro is good thru the month it was done. If you find yourself in this situation, don't ship a full cylinder. (Note that the cylinder is being shipped for hydrostatic testing). In the last question (Q6), the letter states that a cylinder with pressure below 40 psi is not subject to the HMR during shipping.

You said that you think 'he is full of it'. I can assure you he is not the only one that reviewed that letter. The Chief Enforcement Officer of DOT probably got a copy of the letter before he was able to reply. Regardless of your opinion, DOT still applies exactly as the letter of interpretation states. An opinion won't help anyone in court if there is an incident and "i didn't know that" won't save you from a fine.

DOT's letter are just as fun for me to read as they are for you. There are a lot of boring, overly stated regulations but that is part of what keep the compressed gas industry safe. The reason there are 'just a few' fatalities is because of the shops being sticklers for regulations. Some aren't but they're just playing the odds. As the age of cylinders in our country increases, so does the risk of accidents.

 

[halocline]

I think the danger of missing a hydro test by a couple of years is being overstated on this thread, especially if the tanks in question were relatively new AL tanks. To my knowledge there has never been a documented example of a 6061 AL scuba tank filed with air exploding. The horror stories are usually about the older AL alloy, badly rusted steel tanks, or tanks filled with high percentage O2.

The shop's neglect is definitely illegal, but if the tanks were as described, were they dangerous to divers on the boat? Almost certainly not; probably a bigger chance of getting struck by lightning than having an already-filled tank explode on board simply because the hydro was out of date.

If I was on the boat, I would have done what the OP did; alerted the DM, and simply continued the dive. I would not go back to that shop, but I wouldn't let it ruin a good day of diving.