Article on Death In Ginnie Springs

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To everyone who contributed thoughtful comments on this topic, my thanks. I always learn something from these discussions. To those who just vented, consider this: thousands of people saw this article and engaged in a discussion on the critical need for gas testing. I feel that's a contribution to diving safety in general and I'm pleased that I've managed even this modest contribution. So what have you done lately?

Lately? Discussed relevant accident analysis for more recent accidents/incidents. This is ancient history, and we all had an excellent discussion of the need for gas testing - by divers before diving, not by CSI wannabe cops a years later - back when this happened. What were you doing then, back when your points would have at least been more timely, if no more useful?

---------- Post added January 31st, 2015 at 02:10 PM ----------

A man died and no proper investigation was conducted if that bottle in the garage was not analysed (assuming it even exists).

Oh, but this should not be surprising since the one that killed him was not properly analysed either (i.e. by a Lab), nor were the witnesses/suspects properly interviewed.

I always find your posts so cute. 'This CCR isn't safe enough because it fails to comply with this broadly-worded, meaningless standard!' 'This investigation wasn't proper because they didn't do everything the way TV shows taught me each and every police investigation is supposed to go!'

Keep it up, kiddo - we're counting on you for amusement.
 
It is scary the way a diving accident seems not to have been properly investigated at the scene.

This should be a concern to all especially in this forum.

It WAS properly investigated at the scene. It was done the way I would expect it to be done if someone I loved were to die in a cave accident, and I would be satisfied.

You do realize that several of the people in this thread who are telling you that there was nothing wrong in the procedures that were followed are attorneys, don't you?
 
Tickling the Dragon and the Blue Flash: The first is a metaphor that refers to experimenting by careful trial & error how many & what configuration of Tungsten Carbide "tamper" bricks will reflect back enough neutrons to make a fissile sphere of bomb core Plutonium-239 go barely critical as in a self-sustaining nuclear reactor. The second term above is what happens when you unexpectedly, accidentally & grossly overshoot with the core going "prompt critical" -the instantaneous extreme high intensity radiation generated actually ionizes the electrons off the Nitrogen molecules in Air surrounding the Plutonium Core & brick pile with the characteristic color of the Blue Flash: if you're standing in close proximity right next to this catastrophic event, you will die an excruciatingly painful slow death by radiation exposure & poisoning within a few weeks.

"Tickling the Dragon", by the original Physicists of the WWII Atomic Bomb Manhattan Project, was akin to making an "eight-story House-of-Cards": you had to be focused, alert and stone sober. (Today this is never done manually up close on a workbench, but by remote control some quarter of a mile distance away). Scientist Harry Krikor Daghlian, "by the end of the war had tickled the dragon so many times that he was at that dangerous point where experience and confidence were so extreme, there was no need to be careful . . .as an Experimental Physicist of the Critical Assembly Group, he did not have the ignorance to be terrified of his tasks.

On August 21 1945, just six days after Japan surrendered to end WWII, Daghlian went back to the lab around 930pm knowing it was against regulations to perform a criticality experiment without an assistant and certainly forbidden to do so after hours. Thirty minutes later, after building a five stack house of Tungsten Carbide bricks around the core, while holding & slowly lowering the top brick in his left hand to cap the structure he was suddenly startled by the increased sound of the neutron radiation counters through the loudspeakers, and jerked the brick away from the pile, but lost his grip: the Security Guard sitting twelve feet away with his back to the assembly heard the increased neutron counters chatter through the loudspeaker then suddenly go quiet (overloaded & off-scale), along with the clunk of the brick landing atop the pile; and saw the Blue Flash light up the wall in front of him. He amazingly survived.

"Daghlian had caused a problem, and every instinct told him to erase the problem. With his right hand, he knocked off the brick on top of the assembly, glowing a pretty blue, and noticed the tingling sensation of direct sensory neuron excitation. . . He stood there, arms limp by his sides, coming to grips with what had just happened. He decided to dismantle the pile of bricks and calmly told the Security Guard what had occurred. . ."

"Daghlian's right hand endured a high dose of x-rays, gamma rays and high speed neutrons, somewhere on the order of 20,000 to 40,000 rem -it essentially turned necrotic and died two days later; his left hand around 5,000 to 15,000 rem as the brick hit the pile. His body absorbed 590 rem: A fatal dose inducing radiation sickness is usually around 1,000 rem. He slipped into a coma and expired 25 days later, the first victim of acute radiation poisoning to die in history's first mini-disaster of nuclear fission out-of-control." [abridged & taken from Atomic Accidents: A History of Nuclear Meltdowns & Disasters: From the Ozark Mountains to Fukushima, by Jim Mahaffey].

Hubris -whether a learned Nuclear Physicist or an accomplished Overhead Tech Diver. . . Hopefully you live & learn from your mistakes.
 
Gianaameri, you're acting delusional. The Gilchrist County sheriff's office isn't checking in Canada for any tank. The Ontario police or RCMP have no reason to. If you're not aware, they are 2 different countries.

The witnesses were interviewed by the Sheriff's office and witness statements were given to the Sheriff's office.

You should simply disregard anything about the Doria in relation to the travelling tank and your preconceived notions about what gasses are appropriate for the Doria. It might completely boggle your mind that one of the previous non-fatal oxtox hits of a member of the group actually occurred on Carlos' Doria Expedition 2 weeks prior to Carlos' own death. That victim was lucky that CPR by a very capable individual revived him and the only casualty was his drysuit.

It is not delusional in a diving accident to expect that as part of a proper investigations the equipment is seized by the police and the gases analysed by a Lab.

The mere fact that this has not been done points to a failure in procedures or lack of proper procedures in that particular locality.

BUT if that is too much to expect in 2015 (or 2014 when the accident happened, can't remember now the date) - so be it!

Of course if they do not seize equipment and analyse gas, they would not bother either checking the equipment in the garage to corroborate the witness/suspects testimony.
 
It is not delusional in a diving accident to expect that as part of a proper investigations the equipment is seized by the police and the gases analysed by a Lab…

Apparently it is: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/marine-science-and-physiology/500205-forensic-gas-analysis.html

OK, delusional might be overstated. A little surprising perhaps, as it was to me. Police are in the business of catching criminals, not human errors or even plain stupid. That’s Darwin’s job.
 
It is scary the way a diving accident seems not to have been properly investigated at the scene.

This should be a concern to all especially in this forum.

Stop judging. You are wrong.

Fact: The incident was investigated according to the laws of this country, that State, and the local government. Period. Get over yourself, we do not have to meet your standards.

Fact: Because of the above, we have no concerns. Get over yourself, we will not concede your judging.
 
I think I have figured it out. Rosborne and gianaameri are actually the same person. Either that or the latter is a wannabe former. Or vice versa. Or something. They both have no reading comprehension, they both have no writing skill, they both love tinfoil, they both are narcissistic sociopaths...as my grandfahter used to say, if two people agree on absolutely everything, one of them is unnecessary. I can't figure out which of these two (if there are two) is least necessary.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner!
 
Apparently it is: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/marine-science-and-physiology/500205-forensic-gas-analysis.html

OK, delusional might be overstated. A little surprising perhaps, as it was to me. Police are in the business of catching criminals, not human errors or even plain stupid. That’s Darwin’s job.

When there is an accident involving injury or fatality (road-accidents come to mind), it is the Police responsibility and obligation in all countries I have been to arrive promptly at the scene and investigate in accordance to exact procedures.

Same with diving accidents in many countries I have visited. In some, it is clearly stated in the legislation that a body recovery in a diving accident can only be effected by the Police (a rescue is different insofar if the buddy is not dead in some countries you actually do have the legal obligation as a buddy to effect rescue).

When the Police does the body recovery they have to follow precise investigative procedures.

Some localities are behind and are not organised to handle diving accidents, and the lesson to be learned here is that this locality should get itself up to speed and specs. with the rest of the world.
 
Same with diving accidents in many countries I have visited. In some, it is clearly stated in the legislation that a body recovery in a diving accident can only be effected by the Police
And where would that be?

Methinks there would be somewhat fewer bodies recovered if only the police were allowed to drag dead divers ashore. Particularly if we're talking about bodies inside caves or wrecks, or in other less accessible places.
 
And where would that be?

Methinks there would be somewhat fewer bodies recovered if only the police were allowed to drag dead divers ashore. Particularly if we're talking about bodies inside caves or wrecks, or in other less accessible places.

For example, in Spain where I dive frequently the rulebook is called "Orden Ministerial del Ministerio de Fomento de 14 de octubre de 1977" and it is referenced by many laws of the Spanish Autonomic Regions which also may contain similar requirements.

Body recoveries and investigations is generally a Police job in all of the EU and there is Europol and Interpol which if need be can get involved to facilitate cross-border investigations.
 
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