Bad service and safety in Indonesia...

[Bali Diver]

@DEVONDIVER have you dived this region ,if not dive it and see and if you have then even more so you would understand a point here.

similandiver did mention a lot which saves my breath saying it,more so part of his/her comment below

can also speak to the local conditions. Komodo has some of the strongest currents in the world. Reaching 8 knots in several places. This is where an inexperienced guide can really put people at risk. The only dive operators that use inexperienced guides are the super budget shops. Guides here must not only know the sites, but the tides, the local conditions and read this from the surface. I am sure you have read the stories about the divers that drifted several kilometers, ended up on the beach and were found 17 hours later - that was the OWNER of a local dive shop

Just as much - experienced guides can choose sites that are completely free of currents and still offer great diving - nay incredible diving. So it does boil down to the guide

This is what you need if you want to have a safe,great time in Komodo and if you want a back street OP in a remote 3rd world country not registered with a federation and has no website and sends out a non experienced so called guide with a hangover then fine,.especially in a area like komodo.enjoy ! or next time maybe a experienced one then fine again

Forget the divers,firstly it is the responsibility of a OP to make sure everything is safe and to precedure on his boat,including guides and conditions also looking at the divers experience and deciding on divesites,even more so a 60 dive diver in Komodo and this OP has failed seriously on the most important issue here and sometimes you don't get a 2nd chance and in Komodo it's best to get right 1st time i assure you

Also yes the diver has responsibility also.But the Operation has got to be right first.At the end of day i know what decisions i would make and advice similandiver has mentioned

 

[baitballer]

I do find it amazing that various people seem to think that the police would not side with certain individuals who live in that area and conducts business there. I assume those that think this does not happen do not travel very much. I live in the caribbean and it happens here, I used to live in Indonesia and PNG, it happens there, I was on holiday in Mexico last year it definatly happens there and to be brutally honest it can happen just about anywhere!

 

[chlorpheniramine]

They relied upon the dive centre to provide basic safety equipment, that they should have owned...

Not every diver owns all their equipment. Many rent. When you rent, surely you'd at least expect it to be in good working order?

and relied upon a dive guide to keep their dives safe, through planning and management of their dive. That isn't a Divemaster's responsibility.

This is flat out wrong. You can't just go to Komodo's dive sites, plan your own dive, and drop in. An experienced guide is absolutely crucial. They were promised an experienced guide, but the operator failed to deliver.

Sure, they could have sat out the dives or whatnot, but they took steps to remedy the situation. Nothing they did or did not do absolves the operator of responsibility.

 

[DevonDiver]

Not every diver owns all their equipment. Many rent. When you rent, surely you'd at least expect it to be in good working order?

Actually, no. I wouldn't 'expect' anything... not if I was going to rely on it to preserve my life underwater.

Even in a very good dive centre, where rental equipment is serviced on a regular basis, items are heavily used and can suffer from faults or damage between scheduled service intervals. When faults or damage occurs, it relies upon customers making the dive centre aware of the problem. Many don't. The gear comes back to the dive centre, nothing is reported, so it gets cleaned, hung up to dry and issued again in the morning. Perhaps a cursory check at best - but not an in-depth examination of functionality every day.

I rarely use rental equipment, but when I do I check it. I check it before I depart the dive centre, so that I'm not stuck on a dive boat with kit that has problems. Simple really...

This is flat out wrong. You can't just go to Komodo's dive sites, plan your own dive, and drop in. An experienced guide is absolutely crucial. They were promised an experienced guide, but the operator failed to deliver.

It isn't wrong... but that's not what I'm saying.

Why is a dive guide 'absolutely crucial'? For what reasons?!?

When I go to a new area I like to have a local dive guide - because they will know the points of interest on any given dive site. I'd expect to see a lot more stuff with an expert local guide. Sometimes, I prefer not to have a dive guide... I want to do my own thing... normally with my camera.

What I don't need a dive guide for is my safety. I take personal responsibility for that - and I apply the training I have been given. That training includes; planning my dive with my buddy, establishing contingencies, defining my personal limits and ensuring that I have the appropriate training and experience to complete the planned dive. Because I do that, I am able to safely complete any planned dive, with or without my dive guide.

Are you aware of what Divemasters are taught? What their designated responsibilities actually are? If not, you should research that.

I expect a Divemaster to provide an outline dive plan, nothing more. Using that as a framework, I plan my own dive with my buddy. If I didn't do that, then I'd essentially just be following the DM like a sheep (baa!)... reliant on them for everything (baa! baa!). That isn't how I was taught to dive. It wasn't how you were taught to dive either.

I listen to the Divemasters advice and I respect their local knowledge. But the ultimate responsibility for my dive belongs to me.

I plan contingencies. I plan my gas management. I plan and track my navigation. I plan my dive, NDL, surface interval and repetitive dive. I confirm any standard practices used by the dive centre; recalls, lost diver, . I do all that because one of my contingencies is that I shouldn't be reliant on the DM... or that my DM might get separated or have to deal with some issue that means they won't be there to 'shepherd' me.

I also equip myself to deal with any contingencies. Full dive gear, computer, tables, DSMB, reel, whistle, mirror, compass etc etc.

All I really need is a good briefing covering points of interest and hazards... a map of the site....and a buddy (if I'm not solo).

If the Divemaster/Operation set limits on the dive (time, depth or geographical) so be it. I adhere to them.

So.... I ask again, why is it "absolutely crucial" that I have a DM?

Sure, they could have sat out the dives or whatnot, but they took steps to remedy the situation. Nothing they did or did not do absolves the operator of responsibility.

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. I don't see anything they did to remedy the situation other than complain. I see that they neglected to apply the most basic training and advice given in entry-level training....and I see them failing to take any personal responsibility whatsoever.

 

[DevonDiver]

@DEVONDIVER have you dived this region ,if not dive it and see and if you have then even more so you would understand a point here.

Not quite sure what your point is.... but I have dived in those, and many other varied types of conditions.

can also speak to the local conditions. Komodo has some of the strongest currents in the world. Reaching 8 knots in several places. This is where an inexperienced guide can really put people at risk....

From the PADI Statement of Safe Diving Practices - signed by every graduate of every PADI recreational course...

2. Be familiar with my dive sites. If not, obtain a formal diving orientation from a knowledgeable, local source. If diving conditions are worse than those in which I am experienced, postpone diving or select an alternate site with better conditions. Engage only in diving activities consistent with mytraining and experience.

So.... if diver's adhered to their training and agency recommendations, why should they be at risk?

What you are actually saying... is that divers should blame an operator for anything that might happen, should those divers be diving in conditions beyond what they are trained and experienced to safely dive in....

...that they expect a Divemaster to 'babysit' them, because they aren't capable of completing the dive safely by themselves.

Again... lack of responsibility on behalf of the divers - so blame the dive operator?

 

[chlorpheniramine]

So.... I ask again, why is it "absolutely crucial" that I have a DM?.

Clearly after all you've wrote you still don't get it. I wouldn't want an inexperienced dive guide leading me into dangerous currents he didn't expect because he simply didn't know the site well enough. Especially in a place like Komodo. Maybe that's fine for you.

 

[chlorpheniramine]

What you are actually saying... is that divers should blame an operator for anything that might happen, should those divers be diving in conditions beyond what they are trained and experienced to safely dive in....

...that they expect a Divemaster to 'babysit' them, because they aren't capable of completing the dive safely by themselves.

Again... lack of responsibility on behalf of the divers - so blame the dive operator?

Heh. If the dive operator promised a guide who knew the sites and currents well enough, but who instead turned out to be totally inexperienced and ended up leading the divers into dangerous currents, I've love to see anyone try to "postpone diving or select an alternate site with better conditions" while in the middle of that dive.

 

[Bali Diver]

@DevonDiver you are still missing the point and the thread could go on forever.You make some very good comments but missing the point.

You say !

What I don't need a dive guide for is my safety. I take personal responsibility for that - and I apply the training I have been given. That training includes; planning my dive with my buddy, establishing contingencies, defining my personal limits and ensuring that I have the appropriate training and experience to complete the planned dive. Because I do that, I am able to safely complete any planned dive, with or without my dive guide

I say go to Komodo and have a word with a guide,get your boat and then dive Komodo,more so the difficult sites,around full moon will be more fun for you and conditions can change even quicker,make sure that you are able to find a good guide and one who is very experienced of the area.enjoy the wonderful surface currents from the boat.please don't ask me to be your buddy as i would prefer to be surface support and after 5 day's diving tell me what you think,tell me then maybe it's a good idea and better to have a good OP and boat and a good experienced guide of the area and if you don't then i will give up diving as i got it WRONG !!!!


Also should not be be a Dive OP relying on divers renting gear that there are problems with gear.A dive OP you still check dive equipment on a very regular schedule.

 

[devildoc5]

My personal opinion if (now matter at what point during the dive, pre, during or post) "conditions" are so bad that you need some one to hold your hand and coddle you then you dont belong diving at that site PERIOD.

As many have point out we have been taught and trained to never dive beyond the level of your training.

It doesnt say "never dive beyond the level of your buddies or Dive masters training."

Following that logic I dont see why some people are still having a problem wrapping their heads around this.

Perhaps it is the society of (mostly America but slowly spreading to the rest of the world) and the belief that It's everyone else's fault no matter what.

I mean there has to be some excuse or reason I can give that will absolve me from all responsibility right?

 

[DevonDiver]

I say go to Komodo and have a word with a guide,get your boat and then dive Komodo,more so the difficult sites,around full moon will be more fun for you and conditions can change even quicker,make sure that you are able to find a good guide and one who is very experienced of the area.enjoy the wonderful surface currents from the boat.please don't ask me to be your buddy as i would prefer to be surface support and after 5 day's diving tell me what you think,tell me then maybe it's a good idea and better to have a good OP and boat and a good experienced guide of the area and if you don't then i will give up diving as i got it WRONG !!!!

I've lived, dived and worked (in the scuba industry) around SE Asia for the past 5 years. Strong currents are not a rarity in many locations around the region.

A diver is either trained, equipped and experienced to deal with them.... or they are not.

If they aren't, then they should either remedy that deficit... or avoid the situation in the first place.

Simple.

Also should not be be a Dive OP relying on divers renting gear that there are problems with gear.A dive OP you still check dive equipment on a very regular schedule.

So a dive op should do a check-dive and/or full inspection of every regulator before every rental?
Functionally assess every BCD every night before going home?

As I said clearly already... despite having regular scheduled servicing...rental scuba equipment can still develop faults. This is why customers should ensure the functionality, fit and appropriateness of rental equipment prior to departing the dive operation.

It's a pretty simple concept.

Heh. If the dive operator promised a guide who knew the sites and currents well enough, but who instead turned out to be totally inexperienced and ended up leading the divers into dangerous currents, I've love to see anyone try to "postpone diving or select an alternate site with better conditions" while in the middle of that dive.

So, you are saying that it's infeasible that divers can enter unforeseen conditions...and that it's impossible for them to abort the dive should the conditions deteriorate beyond their comfort level?

Or are you saying that divers should knowingly dive at sites where the conditions may easily move beyond their comfort level?

It still sounds as though you're talking about a shepherd leading sheep.

I wouldn't want an inexperienced dive guide leading me into dangerous currents he didn't expect because he simply didn't know the site well enough. ... Maybe that's fine for you.

I wouldn't be 'lead' anywhere I wasn't happy to go. Maybe that's fine for you?