Basic CCR question

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jepuskar

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Scuba Instructor
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Location
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I have a question on Diluent...lets say air as the diluent.

As air, the diluent can:

Be used to inflate your wing and drysuit
Add volume to the inhalation side of the loop on descent
Dilutes the oxygen level in the loop to a breathable mix at depth.

I guess, first off is this correct?

Now my question....I only read about oxygen being injected into the loop to keep the po2 setpoint stable because of the oxygen that has been metabolised. But what about the diluent? If air is the diluent, ok some more oxygen is present, but the nitrogen is being absorbed just like on open circuit. So after you level off at depth and before you ascend...what happens to the portion of the diluent (nitrogen) in your loop?

As stated before I only read about oxygen being injected into the loop and unless there are some warnings high po2/low po2 you dont need to do a diluent flush or add oxygen manually...so essentially under normal operations you dont need to do anything manually... (DPV on Evolution)

Thanks,

Jason

Ok, always re-read my posts after posting them...and I think I may have answered my question...maybe.

The initial diluent addition is to dilute the oxygen so you can maintain a safe po2 at depth..once at depth you metabolize oxygen so only oxygen needs to be added back to the loop to keep the po2 stable. But the nitrogen is still being absorbed...so I guess I didnt answer it fully. :(
 
The amount of nitrogen absorbed into the body is relatively small compared to the amount of nitrogen in the CCR loop. Richard Pyle wrote a humorous story about the time he forgot to fill his diluent bottle and went over to an open circuit buddy and used his octo to put a couple lungfulls of air into the loop. That lasted him the whole dive.

Of course, if he had to bail out, he would have been in serious trouble.


see: http://www.bishopmuseum.org/research/treks/palautz97/lgrb.html It is lesson number 6. search the file for "A Long Way on Two Breaths of Air" to find it easily.
 
Hi stranger, long time no see. :D How you're doing, Jason?

The answer you gave to your question pretty much sums it up, and for most people bailout is a separate tank(s) with its own 1st and 2nd stages, to be truly independent from the RB. Aside from the obvious redundancy for the diver it also means it can be passed off to the buddy. :wink:

Anyway, in your post the gas savings become really obvious. Once level at depth, only O2 in the loop is replenished. So if your using a liter at the surface, you'll be using a liter at depth, any depth. Hence the deeper the dive, the bigger the gas savings (and usually the more expensive the gas(es) due to the amount of He in backgas/diluent).
 
Hi Stefan,

I'm doing just fine...I keep revisiting this CCR thing. I went to APD's website and came across their Vision Simulator which was very well done in my opinion. I was impressed by it and started researching it. I believe Stuart would call me a Seeker now, I'm not a Monkey and not a diver... :)

The websites make it seem straight-forward...but then you start reading about peoples experiences. I need to get down to Lebanon and try out the PRISM and then I would also like to try out the Evolution....

So what's new with you? How many hours do you have on your unit and what have you used for diliuent? Any experiences you want to share regarding a real world scenario, alarm you had to deal with underwater?

J
 
Am doing pretty much okay. But moving back to Germany hasn't done any good for my diving, haven't been in the water since June, which really sucks. Even a lousy quarry is over an hour and half away, sure miss having the ocean at my door step. Among other things. Just got around to ordering new tanks (CE, so I can get them filled). Gas and sorb are sorted. Need to get my drysuit fixed, too. Probably will be limited to pool work till after new years. :shakehead Sometime next spring a friend from CA is planning to move to Spain, it was his PRISM I was diving in CA as he has two. As soon as he's settled in I'm due for a little vacation in the sun. :wink:

If there's one thing AP is great at it's marketing. Picked up the new brochure with the Vision in it, very well done. You read through it and you want one. :11: Disgusting! Major improvement over the Classic, no doubt, but as far as I'm concerned the lack of an indipendent secondary pO2 monitor is still a deal breaker. :no You can get that from the aftermarket, with or without backup deco computing, but that means modifying the unit (warranty issues should problems arise) and spending yet more money.

For an eCCR the PRISM is still my choice for all the reasons you know. If you get a chance you really should visit SMI. Still wouldn't mind a MK15.5, for the same reasons as the PRISM, but getting odds and ends, even someone to help, is probably exponetially harder here than it was in the US.

But to be honest, for now I'm more than happy with my Sport Kiss. Love(d :( ) diving it, small and streamlined. Much easier to setup and maintain than anything else I've had my hands on. And packs pretty well for travel which I need these days. Perfect for the air dil depth I dive to.
 
"the lack of an indipendent secondary pO2 monitor is still a deal breaker." The Evolution has two controllers and each monitor the pO2...they each have their own battery. I think with the Prism dont you have a analog pO2 monitor regardless of any electronic issue you will still be able to monitor your pO2...is that right? i'm going off of memory. It is driven through the current output from the cells themselves???

I didnt realize you moved....I havent been on the rebreatherboard since over the weekend and not since BigJet's accident...its been pretty quiet in this section also.
 
jepuskar:
"the lack of an indipendent secondary pO2 monitor is still a deal breaker." The Evolution has two controllers and each monitor the pO2...they each have their own battery. I think with the Prism dont you have a analog pO2 monitor regardless of any electronic issue you will still be able to monitor your pO2...is that right? i'm going off of memory. It is driven through the current output from the cells themselves???

I didnt realize you moved....I havent been on the rebreatherboard since over the weekend and not since BigJet's accident...its been pretty quiet in this section also.



Hello jepuskar, yes that's right, the Prism has a 2dry that's driven directly off the sensors, like the MK 15/5. They are the only ones that do, and the only units that allow for isolation between the high current side-computer/solenoid-and low current side-sensor/wire harness.

In a crisis, if you want to be sure you have a sensor problem and not a hardware problem-and there's lots of harware btw the sensors and the displays on any ECCR-an independent, passive 2dry is the only way to be sure. KISSECCR, -Andy
 
Hi Jason,

Andy described the PRISM, but let me get a bit more detailed in regards to other CCRs.

The Classic Inspo has two controllers for the setpoint that display the pO2. Each is powered by its own battery, both of which are housed in one compartment. The two controllers are connected to one another, thus not independend. The first one to power up becomes the "master", the other one the "slave". The latter is supposed to take over setpoint control and monitoring when the former fails.

The Vision equiped AP units have the same "master/slave" layout, as well as two batteries in one compartment. The batteries however are shared, either can be used by either controller, the "master" powering the solenoid gets power from the stronger battery until finally power from both is used to supply setpoint control. That can be either a step forward or back, depending on how you look at it. On one side the setpoint control will get available as long as possible, which is good, on the other hand the batteries are now also wired together, which may not be. Failure such as a short in one controller and/or battery could influence the other.

The part I don't like is that you have to trust one controller when the other screws up. Both versions had software problems initially, and with the fairly new Vision some are still emerging. While that is to be expected, it sucks if its all you got. You got problems in one controller, the other one will be plagued too. No independent redundancy.

I'm sure when AP decided to use multiple controllers they were influenced by the design of the Cis-Lunar MK-5p. That unit had an enormous amount of redundancy, three setpoint controllers, 4 or 5 batteries, 4 displays, all spread to different location in and on the rebreathers. Blackbox with dual controllers, each with their own battery in its own compartment, the main one with a backup battery. DOS-HUD display on the BOV (signaling status of Deco, Operation and Setpoint) and a buddy display (setpoint) on the back. The big brick-like display had yet another setpoint controller and with battery in its own compartment, and the main display for sepoint, operation, onboard (and optional 2 tank offboard) tank pressure and deco computing. On the backside was the fourth display, LEDs that read the pO2 of the three cells, also powered by a separate battery in a separate compartment. So even with all the setpoint controllers and displays Dr. Stone believed that a simple, low power, independent pO2 monitor was a necessity to safely dive a rebreather. I firmly believe that decision was correct. The drawback of all the redundancy of course are complexity and expense.

If you look at the other big kahuna of rebreathers, also available at the time, the MK15.5, the unit is the perfect exercise in simplicity. A single setpoint controller with a battery in a separate compartment. A wrist (or HUD) LED display that conveyes the setpoint. An analog display that reads the three cells (and the battery when the electronics are on). A power switch to physically disconnect and cut the power. If there is a short somewhere, no battery power can be fed back to the sensors or analog display and fudge the readings. Since the the MK uses high output cells that are measured directly by the analog gauge (mV meter with a pO2 scale) there are no batteries to fail in that part of the unit. The horseshoe board inside the center section separating the signals can be a pita to work on, but that aside the unit is as simple as it gets. And for many people, there is safety in simplicity. Passive safety as there are less parts to break or fail, active safety as there are less mistakes to be made when maintaining, assembling and diving the unit.

Due to his long experience with the MK series, from the Carmellan rebreathers used by Rob Palmer to explore the Bahamas to the SM1600 he build under agreement with Carleton, he decided on that route for the PRISM. Same kind of electronic simplicity. Bit more advanced of course, the original MKs were analog, his are digital. The HUD conveys battery status, single or multiple cell failures on top of the setpoint. The analog gauge has improved, too, with a dual jeweled movement over the origianl single one, and also conveys setpoint in addition to pO2 readings and battery status. To this point the SMI electronics are still the only ones tracking cells, thus being able to distinguish between one or two cells going bad and voting out the correct one. (The Vision was supposed to have that, too, and initially did, but the feature was thrown out in one of the early revisions). As for power management, the PRISM's battery operates the setpoint computer, HUD and solenoid. Should the voltage drop below 7.6V, the solenoid gets voted out. The diver retains the HUD display (that signals the situation) and controls the setpoint manually. Even with a complete electronic shut down, the analog gauge is still usable. Again, simple.

And I firmly believe that when things go wrong, simple becomes important. Neither PRISM nor MK have menus to scroll through and choose from. No multiple buttons and combinations of buttons to push to make some selection or other. A simple flick on the power switch and the electronics are off. A gauge that tells you where you're at. Simple, easy, quick.

The one major drawback of analog gauges are that they damage easily. Drop it and you're most likely in line for a new one. Drop it on your week long liveaboard trip and you better have a spare or you'll be spending the rest of the trip at the bar mourning your display and dives. There is one alternative from the aftermarket, a digital, battery powered secondary. Based on the one used in the Colkan 155 (MK15.5) it displays all three cells, both batteries and setpoint. Made by Subsea Systems in Australia, it's a replacement plug-and-play for the analog gauge, and a perfect backup as far as I'm concerned.

Back to the electronics, the APECS Meg has dual custom battery packs inside the head, each in its own box. One supplies the setpoint computer, primary wrist display and solenoid. The second one supplies the independent pO2 monitor and the setpoint repeating HUD.

On the Hammerhead (used in the Optima) you have the batteries in the handsets. The primary supplying power to the setpoint controller, deco computer and solenoid and the display. The secondary supplying the independent pO2 monitor, dive gauge, display as well as the HUD.

Last but not least the Ouroboros. It uses three batteries in the main electronics pod. Two are the main batteries, one is a backup (providing about half the operating time). These power the setpoint controller, solenoid, deco computer, HUD (which includes setpoint, deco, solenoid and general warnings) and buddy display (includes pO2 readout and 4 LEDs mirroring the HUD). The digital secondary pO2 display has its own independent battery in the handset.

IMHO each and everyone a better solution than AP's dual controller without independend redundancy.

Finally, the AP units have the batteries (now sealed against water) at ambient pressure, all other units above have them sealed at 1ata (well, surface pressure, anyway). AP and Meg have the batteries inside the loop, the rest outside. Cis, MK, PRISM and Ouroboros also have the solenoid outside the loop.
 
Stefan/Andy, thank you for your input.

Stefan, next time can you go into a little more detail? :)

Very interesting comparisons on the different models. Ofcourse each maker has their reasons why they designed it that way....im sure there are arguments to be made for each.

What do you two think of the AP's temperature stick in the scrubber? Has any other manufacturer come up with any other sort of scrubber monitor? If the EVO's scrubber is rated for 2 hours and I reach the 2 hour mark and the monitor shows the active area is still in the middle...that is a decision to be made...the conservative thing to do would make sure you surface before it reaches the two hour mark..but then the monitor is only used to ensure you dont have a breakthrough before 2 hours and should not be used to extend scrubber life.

J
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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