Best practices of GUE versus other dive programs ?

[RainPilot]

What dive programs have already incorporated some or most of these aspects ?

I believe a lot of agencies are, on paper at least, beginning to move to a more enlightened approach wrt neutral buoyancy etc. RAID is the only one I can speak to, though. We teach neutral buoyant, primary donate, non-silting kicks and most importantly, to me, STRONG emphasis on team/buddy skills.

Okay but what happens if you give away your primary and then your octo ends up not working? Then you become the OOA diver.

I expect my buddy to have maintained their equipment in order to assist me if I have a critical failure, thus it is only right for me to do the same. I have identical, proper second stages and since the "octo" is going to be my source if there's a share, I have a vested interest in making sure it is serviceable. I do this before the dive, before splash I breathe off both to ensure they are working and then on the descent the buddy team do a "S-check" where each person tests both their second stages and checks each other for bubbles etc.

The odds of it going wrong are slim, I also only plan for ONE major failure. If I am sharing already and then a reg goes, then there aren't a lot of options. At some stage any dive becomes impossible if you plan too many failure scenarios.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I hope this will answer the OP's question. I'll say what practices I have taken from GUE fundies as an instructor:
1. Going through all skills (as much as practical) on land
2. For con ed, with exceptions of dry suit and deep, separate the demo/teaching dive day with the testing one. Have students practice in between and only come back once they have mastered the skills.
3. objective success metrics for skills (RAID does this, and I hope they get massive marketshare as a result of the mandated higher quality of training)
4. Focus on finning/depth control/and trim. I.e., control of one's body wherever they are in the water column

 

[alvinsuper]

Speaking at the OW level, I'd say that the habit of doing some drills every dive is something that should be adopted. I don't know about the buoyancy and trim thing, simply because I don't think that's specific to GUE alone. I see other agencies that form OW divers with comparable proficiency in those departments.

Your secondary is safely tucked under your chin, not dangling beneath you. You did test it, didn't you?

If you won't become another OOG diver when donating your primary simply because you tested your secondary, then your secondary as well will be functioning if you donate it. The whole argument that when donating your primary you know it's working as opposed to your secondary wouldn't hold water anymore (no pun intended). If it ain't dangling, be it under your chin or in the triangle area, than it stays safe.
And no, I'm not trying to be a smartarse. Just pointing out that we can't have it both ways.

As far as I'm concerned, I've only assisted to an OOA incident once (amazing sample size, ikr) and the victim snatched the octopus. She later said that she grabbed the first reg she saw and could reach. I think that's a good argument to consider. If your secondary is tucked under your chin, well, I guess you have a giant bullseye on your primary in the eyes of a distressed diver. Good thing obviously, it makes it more predictable.

 

[boulderjohn]

But generally, the octo hose is a bit longer and usually bright yellow. I guess ease of deployment could be a factor if not set up properly. For me, though, I run the MARES Viper and have it set up to just pull off the the keeper so I guess I don't really see it as being any more difficult or time consuming than donating my primary.

What has not been clearly mentioned is that GUE does not allow divers to use the gear used by more than 90% of the world's divers, including the gear you describe here, so when you export the skills that make use of that equipment, you need to export that equipment as well. The two shops with whom I have worked in our local area in the past do not stock that equipment, although they can special order it for you.

 

[kelemvor]

What has not been clearly mentioned is that GUE does not allow divers to use the gear used by more than 90% of the world's divers, including the gear you describe here, so when you export the skills that make use of that equipment, you need to export that equipment as well. The two shops with whom I have worked in our local area in the past do not stock that equipment, although they can special order it for you.

Exactly what I was thinking. The lack of flexibility is GUE's biggest weakness in my opinion. Well, that and the elitist attitudes that some (but not all) gue divers tend to have.

I also don't like their use of helium on OC at shallow depths (100-130'). That's a massive waste of a limited resource. My opinion is that if you're doing dives that require helium you should be doing it on a ccr. Not that I do either... between clowns making balloons and divers blowing helium out into the atmosphere it seems like a real tragedy.

Strengths? The focus on buoyancy, trim, and propulsion.. as others have stated, that's not really unique to GUE though.

Maybe look into RAID? I've not taken classes from RAID or GUE but just going by what I've read, RAID sounds like a "best of GUE" with some improvements type of agency. Maybe I've got the wrong impression.

 

[muzikbiz22]

Exactly what I was thinking. The lack of flexibility is GUE's biggest weakness in my opinion. Well, that and the elitist attitudes that some (but not all) gue divers tend to have.

I also don't like their use of helium on OC at shallow depths (100-130'). That's a massive waste of a limited resource. My opinion is that if you're doing dives that require helium you should be doing it on a ccr. Not that I do either... between clowns making balloons and divers blowing helium out into the atmosphere it seems like a real tragedy.

Strengths? The focus on buoyancy, trim, and propulsion.. as others have stated, that's not really unique to GUE though.

Maybe look into RAID? I've not taken classes from RAID or GUE but just going by what I've read, RAID sounds like a "best of GUE" with some improvements type of agency. Maybe I've got the wrong impression.

Well stated, nicely put.

 

[AJ]

Exactly what I was thinking. The lack of flexibility is GUE's biggest weakness in my opinion.

To me it's their strenght. With GUE teammates you know what you're gonna get and how you will dive not matter what circumstance. With other divers, even trained by the same agency, you don't know. It makes things more complicated than neccesary.

 

[Addicted2H2O]

What has not been clearly mentioned is that GUE does not allow divers to use the gear used by more than 90% of the world's divers, including the gear you describe here, so when you export the skills that make use of that equipment, you need to export that equipment as well. The two shops with whom I have worked in our local area in the past do not stock that equipment, although they can special order it for you.

To me it's their strenght. With GUE teammates you know what you're gonna get and how you will dive not matter what circumstance. With other divers, even trained by the same agency, you don't know. It makes things more complicated than neccesary.

Sounds to me, though, that if GUE only allows their divers to train with equipment only 10% of the populous dives with, they're already setting them up for failure. Because let's face it, if you're doing any sort of resort diving or anything similar on location probably better than 95% of those divers will have trained using the same type of equipment everyone else is using rather than specialized gear. How many GUE divers are there compared to PADI, NAUI, SSI, etc.? So would it not be better to be proficient in using the typical "rec" style setup as opposed to a specialized setup like GUE, etc.? Imagine you've diving with say a PADI trained OW diver and they run into an OOA incident. Their training will likely have taught them to be looking for a brightly colored octo coming from the sharer's right side, rather than the dark colored primary in the sharer's mouth. Which of course leads into the bigger agencies teaching primary share. But even if they started that now, how many divers are out there that learned to share a secondary air source in an OOA situation?

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

Sounds to me, though, that if GUE only allows their divers to train with equipment only 10% of the populous dives with, they're already setting them up for failure. Because let's face it, if you're doing any sort of resort diving or anything similar on location probably better than 95% of those divers will have trained using the same type of equipment everyone else is using rather than specialized gear. How many GUE divers are there compared to PADI, NAUI, SSI, etc.? So would it not be better to be proficient in using the typical "rec" style setup as opposed to a specialized setup like GUE, etc.? Imagine you've diving with say a PADI trained OW diver and they run into an OOA incident. Their training will likely have taught them to be looking for a brightly colored octo coming from the sharer's right side, rather than the dark colored primary in the sharer's mouth. Which of course leads into the bigger agencies teaching primary share. But even if they started that now, how many divers are out there that learned to share a secondary air source in an OOA situation?

This is why GUE and UTD not only teach you to dive but also build a dive community of like minded divers. I always wanted to have myself as my dive buddy. GUE and UTD will give me that.

 

[PfcAJ]

The PADI style octo can be found ROUTINELY flapping in the breeze behind the divers tank, trapped under a strap, smashing coral, dragging through mud, etc.

Its really not a great system.

The whole idea of a spare regulator thats easily able to be handed to a diver means that whatever's holding the reg has to release easily. Thats why those regs are always doing the above things (flapping, dragging, trapped). Then when you want to use it, theres a reasonable chance its not where you expect. You see this all the time on dive boats.

Guess what's ALWAYS where you expect it? The one in your mouth. The system doesn't fall apart because its not only easy to find, its easy to donate since you 100% every time know where it is. The PADI system has none of those attributes.