Biggest thing killing dive shops?

[ystrout]

Well, all the issues with LDS’s is quite a dilemma.
We need them to some degree, but then we don’t, at least not like we used to.
I think the only way they stand a chance is if name brand gear got completely (internally) deregulated. It would be a total throat cutting food fight at first, but eventually all the chips would fall into their places.
Shops also need to look at what they can do that the internet can not, and concentrate on that.

I’ve been self employed for almost 25 years. I’m in the sign business primarily and watched how digital sign making took over the industry. I was always a hand letterer and I refused to change with the times. I’ve had to reinvent myself 5 times over to stay alive. I watched all the other sign shops switch and the prices fall. After a while they all were fighting over scraps for pennies on the dollar for what they used to get. The idea was that they would make it up in volume, but all the sign shops fired all their hand painters, and all those hand painters went out and got machines. Meanwhile, I stayed put. I’m still hand lettering and always seemed to find my market. Now hand painters are extremely rare and I can get 3 times the money for what they get in vinyl. I’m considered an “artist” now. The vinyl shops now hire me to go out and paint their awnings and stucco walls because they can’t do it. In my area (wine country) there are a lot of hoity toity businesses that want unique stuff and I can do stuff that the digital shops can’t do like antiqued unusual imperfect hand made signs that would be impossible digitally. They can have all the boring stuff anyway like the el cheapo chinese restaurant plain signs and banners.

Dive shops need to figure out something similar that the internet can’t do. They shouldn’t be trying to compete with it. Except for gear, the manufacturers need to stop their draconian policies with small dive shops, it’s not fair.

I agree 100%.

Industries are constantly changing and shops need to realize that. The internet is great. It is convenient, you can find way more info than a salesperson can give you, and there's often better deals that B&M stores.

But it can't do rentals (yet, UberEats style dive rentals aren't a thing yet, but maybe soon? Hint hint dive shop owners), classes, and air-fills. Dive shops that want to succeed need to change their business model and focus on the services side.

In 2018, you're just not going to beat the internet in product sales.

 

[Wookie]

I follow the white moose cafe on Facebook. I follow them because the owner takes the piss of anyone who complains. Vegans, gluten free, Brazilians, people who order off the menu, and now bloggers. He destroys those who comes lain, which does gain him social media exposure. But it's hard on the client base.

 

[scubafanatic]

I knew a scammer who would buy a camera, use it on vacation and then return it for a full refund.

He thought it was cool to do so.

I thought he was a jerk.

People do that right before the Super Bowl....get that BIG Screen before the game, return it afterwards for refund.

 

[scubafanatic]

I like you Kosta, but please don't take it personally. The whole thread is about what's killing dive shops. If I had to pay by the word, I wouldn't say "What's killing dive shops is dick customers", I'd say "What's killing dive shops is dick dive shop owners". The truth is somewhere in between, but you're taking one guys shopping habits as if it's a personal slam on you, slamming back, and showing the reason folks hate their LDS.

When I shop on Amazon, no one ever says "Don't shop here", they just fulfill my order. When I buy from LeisurePro, no one once says to me "I don't like your diving style, please choose another shop". I am guilty of this too, which is why I'm no longer in the charter boat business (If you don't like what I serve for dinner, choose another boat). Guess what? Folks chose another boat.

 

[Adam Jorgenson]

When I started out in my life, I ran a milk home delivery service. I bought from the company, had my markup, usually 20%, and sold it. I am obviously from a very small town. I supplied the grocery store, the school, gas stations, rest home, and numerous private homes. I noticed that Wal-Mart the next town over was selling the same product for less than I was paying for cost. I asked my supplier about it, and thwy said because Wal-Mart bought and sold in such volume, they were able to get it at a far lower cost, and they turn and pass that on to thw customer. Because of the volume they sold, they were also able to trim their profit to get even more sales. I was not allowed to buy from Wal-Mart and resell, and as such, I just couldn't compete when my customers bought everything else they consumed from Wal-Mart anyway. It ended up putting me out of business. I felt like a failure, but how could I possibly beat a system like that. Now I don't know if dive equipment manufacturers do the same or not, but if, say, Aqualung sells their products cheaper to online venues who sell thousands of a particular item a year, but keeps the cost higher to a LDS who may only sell 50, that is going to hurt that local shop right from the start.
All that being said, my LDS does sell for a higher cost than you can find online. But he works around the price difference through service. He doesn't charge labor for the work he does for the life of the product. And if the item, say an Aqualung reg, has a lifetime warranty for free parts, and he has free labor, then that will far more make up for the initial cost savings from buying online in the long run. Customer care is so important, and my LDS is really great. After we got certified he said, "Look, we go diving all the time. Come with us. Even if you don't have gear. Just let me know you are coming and I will bring gear for you to use for free. It's just important to get you in the water." That kind of service is the way a shop stays competitive and stays open. They are like family to us. And I want them to be there, so if I have to pay a bit more than online, I will do it to keep them there because it is far more than just a store to us. That's what a LDS needs to do. That will keep them in business.

 

[Wookie]

When I started out in my life, I ran a milk home delivery service. I bought from the company, had my markup, usually 20%, and sold it. I am obviously from a very small town. I supplied the grocery store, the school, gas stations, rest home, and numerous private homes. I noticed that Wal-Mart the next town over was selling the same product for less than I was paying for cost. I asked my supplier about it, and thwy said because Wal-Mart bought and sold in such volume, they were able to get it at a far lower cost, and they turn and pass that on to thw customer. Because of the volume they sold, they were also able to trim their profit to get even more sales. I was not allowed to buy from Wal-Mart and resell, and as such, I just couldn't compete when my customers bought everything else they consumed from Wal-Mart anyway. It ended up putting me out of business. I felt like a failure, but how could I possibly beat a system like that. Now I don't know if dive equipment manufacturers do the same or not, but if, say, Aqualung sells their products cheaper to online venues who sell thousands of a particular item a year, but keeps the cost higher to a LDS who may only sell 50, that is going to hurt that local shop right from the start.
All that being said, my LDS does sell for a higher cost than you can find online. But he works around the price difference through service. He doesn't charge labor for the work he does for the life of the product. And if the item, say an Aqualung reg, has a lifetime warranty for free parts, and he has free labor, then that will far more make up for the initial cost savings from buying online in the long run. Customer care is so important, and my LDS is really great. After we got certified he said, "Look, we go diving all the time. Come with us. Even if you don't have gear. Just let me know you are coming and I will bring gear for you to use for free. It's just important to get you in the water." That kind of service is the way a shop stays competitive and stays open. They are like family to us. And I want them to be there, so if I have to pay a bit more than online, I will do it to keep them there because it is far more than just a store to us. That's what a LDS needs to do. That will keep them in business.

Interesting, and great story. I, on the other hand, would give my right arm to have milk delivered, especially in glass jugs with the cardboard lid, and my shadow has not darkened a Wal*Mart in well over 10 years.

Maybe not my right arm, but 20% would be fine.

 

[boulderjohn]

Now I don't know if dive equipment manufacturers do the same or not, but if, say, Aqualung sells their products cheaper to online venues who sell thousands of a particular item a year, but keeps the cost higher to a LDS who may only sell 50, that is going to hurt that local shop right from the start.

That is exactly what is happening. As I pointed out in an early post, in many cases the advertised online price is lower than the dealer price for a local shop. A local shop cannot compete in price in those cases.

Interesting, and great story. I, on the other hand, would give my right arm to have milk delivered, especially in glass jugs with the cardboard lid, and my shadow has not darkened a Wal*Mart in well over 10 years.

Maybe not my right arm, but 20% would be fine.

And so they have to make it up in service, such as home delivery. Some people, like Frank, are willing to pay that extra 20%. Most people aren't.

I remember when gas stations started to go self service. I knew people who swore that many people would prefer to have an attendant fill the tank for them, so there would be stations that would still offer that service, and those stations would thrive. Hmmm. When was the last time you saw a gas station attendant filling tanks in a state that did not require it?

 

[Graveyarddiver]

What I see in NC with the most successful LDSs is they are all tied to a charter boat, or run one. They provide training, and do what they have to to get you on the boat, which keeps the shop in business. Where I currently live is the black hole of dive shops, unless they connect to the military community, they die. Only 2 lasted longer than 20 years and they are now both closed. Rough 6 others have come and gone in the past 10 years. I believe most of these closures was due to a marketing failure and in inability to provide service at a reasonable price point.

Now to the other issue I see in the Industry that affects shops throughout the state. The dive industry sells fear, if you don't have this certification you can't do this or you can't do that. You can't maintain your own equipment, you have to take you tanks to your lds to get a hydro etc. This while effective at getting the certification agencies money increases the already high cost and anxiety placed on a potential new consumer and diver.

15 years ago, learning how to dive, out of necessity, my dad had to learn how to maintain and service all our gear, to include 02 cleaning, regulator service, and even doing partial pressure nitrox blends out back. In doing so, we learned the shear cost that the industry collects from the consumer for simple tasks. To this day we still are self reliant, once you know how to take care of your own gear it's hard to trust someone else, especially as a tec diver. This has been compounded by the shop closures in my area, I can get a tank hydro done for 25 at a fire protection store locally, or drive an hour and pay 45. When you have 8 tanks per person it adds up.

My general impression overall is LDSs need to do a better job catering to their long term clients, who will be buying gear yearly, and work on creating long term clients by not selling fear, and encouraging growth rather than running cert mill. If they don't the divers wanting to advance will head south to Florida, or to the coast.

 

[boulderjohn]

The milk delivery example brings to mind another point related to dive shops.

I used to get home milk delivery. It was left in a box by my front door. One year my family and I went away for several weeks of vacation during the summer. When we returned, our front porch was a mess. The delivery service had continued to deliver milk while we were gone. It had soured and then exploded, covering our walls and porch ceiling with white goop that hardened and was close to impossible to remove. The delivery man had made a new delivery each week, picking up the unused and exploded old bottles and replacing them with new ones each time. He never thought to question what he was doing. The company said they were sorry they had missed our cancellation notice, but that was it for us. We canceled the service permanently, and you would have to be very convincing to make me try it again.

A few years ago a tech diver accidently knocked over an AL 40 filled with oxygen in his garage, and the resulting explosion almost killed him. He had just had the tanks inspected, oxygen cleaned, and filled at his LDS. The investigation showed that the LDS had given the task to an employee who had no training in any of those services. It was likely the silicone lubricant he had gobbed on the cylinder threads that caused the explosion.

If you are going to make service your selling point, you had better make sure that your service is pretty darned good.

 

[KevinNM]

I remember when gas stations started to go self service. I knew people who swore that many people would prefer to have an attendant fill the tank for them, so there would be stations that would still offer that service, and those stations would thrive. Hmmm. When was the last time you saw a gas station attendant filling tanks in a state that did not require it?

I have been convinced that, in general, if conditions allow a race to the bottom then people will gladly do it to save a few bucks. And then bitch about how things suck these days.