BP/W, doubles and other questions

[theriel]

Hello,
I am PADI RD, who would really like to try diving with BP/W, as i believe it is much more comfortable in the water and allows for a better trim.

Also, in some future (easy: I mean after I have many more dives) I would like to try technical diving.

Now, having said that, I would like to get to know a couple of things:

1.Is there such a thing as recreational diving on twin tanks? I realize that I should at some point make myself comfortable with them, so I thought - why not now... But the question arises - will I look weird while doing no-decompression diving on nitrox using doubles? Do people do that?

2.Could somebody explain me what BP/W *really* consists of (I mean, which parts do you usually buy separately)? Is it the wing + harness + plate, or is it just 2 part -> plate (with harness) + wing?

3. What my 2rd question really refers to is... is it possible to buy a system both for doubles and single tank diving? And if not, is it possible to reuse any of the above mentioned parts (so as to minimize the costs - e.g. use the same wing)? Or do I basically have to buy 2 totally separate systems?

4.What is the difference between Aluminium and Stainless Steel backplates? (yeah, I know, the material, but... practically - why would you choose one over the other?)

Thank you for help!

 

[BabyDuck]

of course there is recreational diving on doubles. it's actually nice if lots of your diving is off a boat not to have to switch out tanks after the first dive - though you need to ask if your doubles will fit in their racks. be very careful to pay attention to your ndl time, since gas won't likely be your limiting factor anymore.

a backplate & wing is backplate, wing, and harness. there are accessories like lights and knives, but those are the basic parts. sometimes plates are sold by themselves, and sometimes with harnesses. sometimes wings are added as a package deal, but you usually get them separately.

no - you will need a wing for singles and a wing for doubles. there are a few that are supposed to work for both, but they do a crappy job. get a singles wing for now, and a doubles wing when you go down that path. however, you can use the same plate and harness if you want.

the main difference in aluminum and stainless is weight. if you currently need lots of lead (heavy thick wetsuit, drysuit, your particular body type) then go for stainless. if you don't need the ballast, aluminum might be better.

keep an eye on the classifieds here & other boards. nothing wrong with getting used plates, and i snagged a $50 wing here a few years ago.

 

[rstofer]

I'd be very cautious of used wings. There's a thread around here somewhere where the OP bought one via eBay and it came complete with leaks. Non-repairable leaks!

There are a lot of good BP/Ws and, in my view, Deep Sea Supply is at the top of the list (www.deepseasupply) but I also have pieces from DiveRite, OxyCheq and HOG.

As stated above, you basically start with a backplate (probably stainless if you dive in cold water) and a harness (usually a one piece affair). Then you can change wings as your needs change.

Do not try to use a doubles wing on a single tank. It will taco around the tank and be very difficult to vent.

I have no idea what gear is available in the UK but most of the BP/Ws over here are more than adequate.

Richard

 

[cool_hardware52]

Hello,
I am PADI RD, who would really like to try diving with BP/W, as i believe it is much more comfortable in the water and allows for a better trim.

Also, in some future (easy: I mean after I have many more dives) I would like to try technical diving.

Now, having said that, I would like to get to know a couple of things:

1.Is there such a thing as recreational diving on twin tanks? I realize that I should at some point make myself comfortable with them, so I thought - why not now... But the question arises - will I look weird while doing no-decompression diving on nitrox using doubles? Do people do that?

Lots of people do exactly that. Some find they prefer the stability of doubles. Doubles are in many way easier to dive than single tanks, they are more work out of the water however.

I'll caution you that doubles are a two edged sword. Redundancy (if you know how to use them correctly) and lots of gas, but also enough gas to get you in to deco. Get some training / mentoring

2.Could somebody explain me what BP/W *really* consists of (I mean, which parts do you usually buy separately)? Is it the wing + harness + plate, or is it just 2 part -> plate (with harness) + wing?

Basic components are the back plate, wing, harness and some means to secure the tank(s). A BP&W is just a modular BC. You pick the components you need for a particular application.

3. What my 2rd question really refers to is... is it possible to buy a system both for doubles and single tank diving? And if not, is it possible to reuse any of the above mentioned parts (so as to minimize the costs - e.g. use the same wing)? Or do I basically have to buy 2 totally separate systems?

In most cases you can use the same plate and harness for singles or doubles. There are wings that are marketed as being fit for use with doubles of singles, but they do neither well.

Using an oversized tank wrapping doubles wing with a single tank will negate many of the advantages of a BP&W. Can it be done? Sure. Is there one wing I might take on a 'round the world backpacking technical dive expedition? Sure, but I already know how to make suboptimal gear work.

Keep in mind that wing selection is a function of the buoyancy of your exposure suit and volume of the gas you will be carrying.

Do you know now what you will need for exposure protection when you start diving doubles? Keep in mind that longer exposures required more insulation.

Do you know now what cylinders you will be using?

If not buying a "doubles" wing now is a shot in the dark.

4.What is the difference between Aluminium and Stainless Steel backplates? (yeah, I know, the material, but... practically - why would you choose one over the other?)

Plate material is a function of required ballast. If you need a lot of ballast SS plates are usually a good idea. Think 5 or 7 mm suit + normal single tank.

If you are over weighted, for example 2 x big steels (and tank bands and manifold and can light and dual regs) + thin suit a SS plate may over weight the diver. That makes a lightweight plate, al or Kydex a better choice.

For most new divers who dive cold water at home a SS plate is a better choice to start with.

Tobin

 

[theriel]

Thank you for your replies! They were really helpful.

So, if I understand you correctly, I need:
a)Harness + backplate (e.g.: DirDirect :: ALL HALCYON KIT :: Halcyon Wings and Wing Systems :: Parts, Accessories & Weight Systems :: Halcyon Backplate and Harness) - £200 - and this I can use till the end of my life, whatever I choose to do
b)Wing -> ~£300 - I need to buy separate, depending on whether I dive single or double tanks.

The following questions then arise:
1.Are all H/B compatible with all wings? Or if (as I suppose) not, how much flexibility do I have? I mean, can I just take any backplate + harness which is of my size, or do I need to think about which wings in future I will use it with?
2.OK, I accept that there exists "doubles recreational diving" but.. how popular is it? I don't want to pretend to be "tech", or, as some people might think - show off - by using twins. Also, I don't have my own tanks and I am not planning to buy them. Can I easily rent doubles everywhere in the world? Basically - what types of questions should I ask myself before buying either single or double tanks?
3.I am skinny (hmmm let's call it fit :]), 175cm, doing warm-waters diving only (don't enjoy freezing water, even in a drysuit). Will aluminium plate be enough?
4.Finally - how much does the whole BP/W system weigh (assuming aluminium backplate) and how easily is it packable to a normal suitcase together with other clothes? .

 

[ae3753]

1.Is there such a thing as recreational diving on twin tanks? I realize that I should at some point make myself comfortable with them, so I thought - why not now... But the question arises - will I look weird while doing no-decompression diving on nitrox using doubles? Do people do that?

Absolutely, there is recreational diving with doubles.

2.Could somebody explain me what BP/W *really* consists of (I mean, which parts do you usually buy separately)? Is it the wing + harness + plate, or is it just 2 part -> plate (with harness) + wing?

BP/W, at a minimum, will consist of a plate + wing + harness + crotch strap. For example, see the doubles packages for bp/w like the UTD bp/w for doubles or use DSS Rig Conifgurator.

For singles, you will add 2 cam bands. And potentially add a single tank adapter (STA). Take a look at packages for guidance, for example the UTD single tank bp/w.

3. What my 2rd question really refers to is... is it possible to buy a system both for doubles and single tank diving? And if not, is it possible to reuse any of the above mentioned parts (so as to minimize the costs - e.g. use the same wing)? Or do I basically have to buy 2 totally separate systems?

It is possible, but far from ideal.

The big difference is the wing. There are dual purpose wings that allow for both singles and doubles, but these are compromises. When you start diving doubles and moving to tech, the cost of an additional doubles wing will be nominal. You will be far happier with separate singles wing and double wing.

Here's a page that discusses what to look for in selecting a wing.

4.What is the difference between Aluminium and Stainless Steel backplates? (yeah, I know, the material, but... practically - why would you choose one over the other?)

Weight, and distribution of.

For single tank divers, most everyone will select SS because of better weight distribution. Unless they travel extensively and are concerned about the weight difference.

For doubles, an AL plate can be very helpful. Most people are head heavy with doubles. As the result, using an AL backplate allows the diver to move 4#s lower on the body and counter the head heaviness.

That being said, I use an SS plate for singles and doubles.

 

[ae3753]

Thank you for your replies! They were really helpful.

So, if I understand you correctly, I need:
a)Harness + backplate (e.g.: DirDirect :: ALL HALCYON KIT :: Halcyon Wings and Wing Systems :: Parts, Accessories & Weight Systems :: Halcyon Backplate and Harness) - £200 - and this I can use till the end of my life, whatever I choose to do
b)Wing -> ~£300 - I need to buy separate, depending on whether I dive single or double tanks.

For doubles, this is correct.

For singles, you need 2x cam bands. DirDirect :: ALL HALCYON KIT :: Halcyon Wings and Wing Systems :: Parts, Accessories & Weight Systems :: Halcyon Octogrip Strap

Looking at the Halcyon singles wing, you'll also need to buy a single tank adapter. http://www.dirdirect.com/Halcyon-Single-Tank-Adapter.html

The following questions then arise:
1.Are all H/B compatible with all wings? Or if (as I suppose) not, how much flexibility do I have? I mean, can I just take any backplate + harness which is of my size, or do I need to think about which wings in future I will use it with?

For doubles, you can mix and match as you please. The backplate and wing mate via the 11" OC holes (the same used to attach to the tanks).

For singles, it's a little trickier. If you are using a single tank adapter, then you can mix and match as you please. STAs use the 11" OC holes. If you do not use an STA, and attach the plate and wing via the cam bands only, then there may be differences. Cam band slot location and width are not standard.

2.OK, I accept that there exists "doubles recreational diving" but.. how popular is it? I don't want to pretend to be "tech", or, as some people might think - show off - by using twins. Also, I don't have my own tanks and I am not planning to buy them. Can I easily rent doubles everywhere in the world? Basically - what types of questions should I ask myself before buying either single or double tanks?

If you don't own tanks and not planning to buy them, then I would discourage using doubles. There's additional logistics, costs, and skills for diving doubles.

While there is recreational doubles diving, this is mostly done by people who own their own tanks. The locations that will have doubles for rent are those that also have technical diving.

The question is, what will doubles offer that singles doesn't for your diving?

Btw, how much are you diving?

3.Finally - how much does the whole BP/W system weigh (assuming aluminium backplate) and how easily is it packable to a normal suitcase together with other clothes? .

BP/W is very compact, and much more compact than a traditional BC. Weight for an AL BP/W will be < 6#s.

 

[it_mike]

1.Are all H/B compatible with all wings?

Generally speaking, yes. The only disparity is the occasional alignment of the cam bands for singles. This is easily alleviated through the use of an STA (single tank adapter), which makes switching between singles and doubles much easier.

2.OK, I accept that there exists "doubles recreational diving" but.. how popular is it?

It exists, but it's not necessarily popular. Most divers don't own their own tanks. This leads to the next question

Also, I don't have my own tanks and I am not planning to buy them. Can I easily rent doubles everywhere in the world?

Therein lies the rub. You probably won't find manifolded tank rentals except in extremely rare circumstances. You have a choice of using personal tanks, or diving independent doubles if you really want to rent.

You're asking all the right questions except the most important one; Why am I looking to dive doubles? What problem will it resolve?

If you're just looking to try it out, hook up with other divers who already dive doubles.

 

[theriel]

Thank you for your help.

The answer to your question - "why doubles" is: I want to go for technical diving in future. So, I thought, why not start gaining doubles diving skills right now... and minimize costs by buying only one BCD instead of two.

But, looking at your responses (especially concerning the problems when you don't have your own tanks) I think I will do better by sticking to single tank diving for a while until I decide to take my first technical course.

So, despite of my best intentions to retain some flexibility and be open for future development, it seems that the best options for now would be:
->BP+harness
->Single Tank Adapter
->Single tank wing

Well, the good point is that still, at the end of the day, I will be able to use the same BP+harness in future...

 

[carrielsal]

Watch the classifieds here. I bought my Halcyon 55# Explorer used on the classifieds and also a new Halcyon SS BP with harness. Both were exceptional deals and saved me several hundred dollars.