Buddies

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Diver0001

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The Hogarthian buddy:

  • Which "standing orders" for lack of a better term, do you have with your buddy
  • Which behaviours do you expect from your Hogarthian buddy
  • Which skills should your buddy possess
  • How is this different from the buddy skills taught to PADI OW divers
  • How is this different than DIR divers (no trolling this or the previous point please)

R..
 
The hogarthian concept is equipment only. DIR, as well as others have built upon this, but when you talk "hogarthian" you're talking your rig and nothing else.

So I guess the answer to your last point is: Hogarthian concepts do not include extend to buddies. DIR concepts do.

Roak
 
I know but it assumes the presence of a similarly skilled and equipped buddy.

So what's that buddy supposed to be doing?

R..
 
I agree with Roger. I see 'hogarthian' as a gear thing only. I don't believe that it "assumes the presence of a similarly skilled and equipped buddy."

My gear setup is hogarthian but I dive it with "buddies" kitted up all kinds of ways. Sometimes they are rigged hog but often they are not.
 
OK, then we've actually stumbled across an interesting difference of opinion about this.

Maybe if we take a step back we can go forward.... If we look at the roots, what do we find? I don't know Bill Main but I've read a few things from him and about him. I don't recall anywhere reading that he dives solo. I seem to remember something about him preferring 3 person teams to 2 person teams but not that he dives solo. (Mabye someone has references to the contrary?) I would take that as a first indication that he (they) developed the system with a buddy in mind. The omnipresent long hose on the gear would also seem to suggest the assumption that a buddy is present. In any case just looking at the gear you can pretty easily draw the conclusion that it's not based around a solo diver.

I understand it's a gear focus but is it all gear? The buddy is not mentioned by JJ in his article but maybe JJ is trying to draw the line with the buddy on the DIR side....? Interesting suggestion. I know he and Main don't agree about some things but because JJ writes and Main doesn't it's really hard for me as an outsider to really know what Main's views are about this. Maybe you know him well enough to ask him yourself but I'm afraid I don't. I do know from what I've read that he would like to write about the differences between Hogarthian and DIR but JJ has asked him not to do that. I also know from what I've read that he suggests (won't say accuses) JJ of engaging in a certain amount of revisionist history..... Which all leads me to believe that one article about Hogarthian being all about gear written by a guy who Main doesn't see eye-to-eye with might not be the whole truth.

Once again, just look at the rig. It has buddy system written all over it. The gear is the result of a process. That process lives in a context and I do'nt see a context without a buddy producing the solutions I'm seeing there.... Do you?

I suppose it's possible that the gear was based around the presence of a buddy but that there are no requirements placed on teh buddy. I have a hard time believing that giving the kind of diving that lead to the development of this system. I think that the requriements are just so ingrained in the process that they are seldom (if ever) documented.

That's the reason for this thread.

Am I convincing you or do you still think I'm full of s...t?

R..
 
Maybe the place to start looking is acceptable buddy practice in caves. That is fundamentaly where both Bill Mains' and later GI3/JJ ideas evolved from. Would it be a better thing to ask - "What is the difference between a cave buddy and an open water buddy"? Certainly in some areas there are very clear differences here. Gas management and lost buddy procedures spring immediately to mind.
 
Kim:
. Would it be a better thing to ask - "What is the difference between a cave buddy and an open water buddy"?
Or maybe the question to ask is "What is the difference between a typical open water buddy and the sort of buddy that you would like to have diving with you. :wink:

For me, a good buddy (independent of what gear he has one) is one that
1) has good situational awareness, and
2) behaves as expected, and as we have agreed upon beforehand.

I could list lots of specifics, such as lost diver procedures, buddy distance and positions, etc., but the real heart of being a good buddy is predictability and awareness.
 
Diver0001:
I don't know Bill Main but I've read a few things from him and about him. I don't recall anywhere reading that he dives solo. I seem to remember something about him preferring 3 person teams to 2 person teams but not that he dives solo. (Mabye someone has references to the contrary?)

Bill is a great guy,hope maybe you get to meet him,but don't be surprised if he evaluates your gear when you are talking and gives you an opinion. The Hogarthian philosophy is more gear oriented,with emphasis on streamlining and minimalism. He would make some comments about buddies and swim speeds though. Bill is a fast swimmer,and he has made work to keep up or avoid getting run over. I've been lucky and guess I've gotten the Hogarth seal of approval for gear rigging :)
 
Kim:
Maybe the place to start looking is acceptable buddy practice in caves. That is fundamentaly where both Bill Mains' and later GI3/JJ ideas evolved from. Would it be a better thing to ask - "What is the difference between a cave buddy and an open water buddy"? Certainly in some areas there are very clear differences here. Gas management and lost buddy procedures spring immediately to mind.

An OW buddy is somebody who I get buddied up with on a dive boat. When I am cave diving my dive buddy becomes an integral part of my exit or survival. I will cave dive with people I don't know because I guide a few systems and do mentoring,but the dive is one I know well and can easily manage a situation. If I am doing a cave dive with long penetrations,very silty conditions,very deep,restricitions that require tank removal etc then I dive only with people I have years of experience and work with them as a team.
 
I´d agree that the strict definition of the word hogarthian applies only to gear.

Sometimes when I ask questions about a rig (always curious) I get the "better divers than me doing more advanced dives than me told me that this is the way you should configure yourself". Maybe it is a line people use who don´t want to talk about their gear but to me it sounds like a "cop-out" and to my mind is exactly the kind of thing that, no offence, leads to people wearing pink snorcles, split fins and all manner of danglies...

However, it seems likely that someone who´s spent enough time and effort to "develop" a hogarthian gear config has also given some thought to things other than gear. When I see someone in a hogrig I infer quite a few things about other than gear. I´ll mention a few examples to explain what I mean:

-Longhose: The "only" reason for a longhose is to make airsharing easier. Wearing one indicates to me that the diver has given some thought to the problems and situations where airsharing could be necessary and has taken steps to simplify the process. I´d expect someone using such a hose to be proficient and ready to initiate airsharing should the need arise. Also changing gear from "the norm" to a longhose indicates to me that the diver takes his "buddy responsibilities" seriously and I´d expect him not to be a "same ocean"-buddy.

-Can light/similar: A big light might just be a case of "this is a cool toy" but coupled with the rest of a "hogrig" I expect that the buddy will be able to understand and use his light to communicate, that includes passive communication (keeping beam in line of sight). Once again this "commitment" to communication is an indicator of the importance the diver places on the "buddy system"...

I could go on and on about almost every piece of gear but I think you get my drift. In my experience I very seldom end up dissapointed when I infer these things about someone with what, to my mind, seems like a reasonable setup...

Basically I expect a hogarthian buddy to be a "good buddy", someone who feels that people who enter the water together should exit it the same way, that problems should be solved underwater (as much as possible), that a good plan and good awareness is a good way of insuring a good and safe dive, that skills aren´t something you "learn" to get a c-card but something that enchances safety and minimizes risk on every dive, that silt is bad and should be avoided etc.

How does this differ from a PADIOW-buddy?
PADI OW, at least in real life, doesent teach this. Mostly it seems not even OW-instructors learn this.

How does this differ from a DIR-buddy?
I honestly don´t know, I´ve never dived with one.
If I was feeling provocative I might reply that some DIR-divers tend to give answers like this one: "better divers than me doing more advanced dives than me told me that this is the way you should configure yourself"...to me the poseidon thread on TDS is a good example of this attitude...
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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