Buddy breathing

[Kim]

PADI doesn't teach you to do a emergency buoyant ascent either. It's all just theory from beyond CESA in PADI OW class.

Xanthro

So basically if you're in that kind of trouble you're on your own? Sounds like a great approach!
'OK guys - we haven't got time to actually teach you - but if you read up on pages XX to XX - we're sure you can work it out on your own!'

LOL

 

[Xanthro]

So basically if you're in that kind of trouble you're on your own? Sounds like a great approach!
'OK guys - we haven't got time to actually teach you - but if you read up on pages XX to XX - we're sure you can work it out on your own!'

LOL

I think it is more along the lines that PADI considers both skills to be dangerous to teach an OW student.

I'd have to agree on a buoyant ascent, that would be dangerous to teach.

Xanthro

 

[Daryl Morse]

The difficulty is not everyone, even divers, are comfortable in the water. I've seen many grown men get panic stricken with fear they are drowning in water they can stand up in. The ability to stand is much more ingrained than the ability to buddy breath, but under stress, people can even forget this.

Wow, this scares me. If someone isn't comfortable in the water, they should stay on the shore. People panic in unexpected situations when they aren't trained properly. The way to avoid panic is training and practise.

If dive training organizations don't instill divers with confidence in the water, then they aren't doing their job properly. And to be clear, I don't mean ignorant confidence, I mean this: I know I can do something because I've done it and practised it, not only in the pool, but also in the ocean.

I believe dive training organizations do a huge disservice by dumbing training down to cater to people who would rather be entertained than actually taught. PADI's idea that an ESA is preferable to buddy breathing is IMHO, an example of this sort of thinking. Why would someone want to risk an ESA when air is an arm's length away? When I did the OW course, my buddy and I buddy-breathed even though we were told not to. It seemed like an obvious thing to do.

Other things I would like to have tried in my course include:

• running out of air intentionally to know exactly what it feels like (not like what happens when the valve is turned off)
• completely removing and replacing gear at depth to simulate getting out of an entanglement
• Etc.

What I don't get is why most people don't seem to want to try stuff like that so they have confidence to deal with the unexpected things that sooner or later will happen.

 

[Kim]

I think it is more along the lines that PADI considers both skills to be dangerous to teach an OW student.

I'd have to agree on a buoyant ascent, that would be dangerous to teach.

Xanthro

I agree that a buoyant ascent is too dangerous to practice - however there isn't that much to inflating your BCD (if you have air left to do that!) and dropping your weightbelt. Hopefully you'll also remember to breath out as you go up.
Buddybreathing, however, is not too difficult to practice - and I've never heard of accidents BB'ing in a practice situation. It does need constant practice though or it can go very wrong.
I did my rescue course with the girlfriend of the owner of a 5 star PADI center. She dived almost everyday and had 100's of dives within the last few months. However, when we came to the buddy breathing review in about 5 meters of water she panicked completely and bolted for the surface. Suffice to say she was incredibly embarrased and admitted that she hadn't done it again since OW. After the instructor and I calmed her down and promised not to tell her boyfriend we went back down and the second time she did it perfectly with no more problems. After the session we still had about 120 bar in the tanks, so the instructor left and we made a small beach dive excursion for about 20 mins buddy breathing as we were swimming the whole time. She faithfully promised me afterwards that she would continue to practice from then on and I'd lay money that she still does - she never wanted to be so embarrased - or panicked - again.
It's really not hard and as long as you practice it's perfectly safe. PADI's attitude suggests to people that it's difficult - so makes them afaid of it. To my mind this is completely irresponsible and very far from the truth. To then leave it in the options list for an emergency is just asking for trouble. I haven't seen the DAN statistics as I can't join DAN USA living in Japan (they have their own DAN here - but the site is all in Japanese!!!) - however if it is in fact true that there is a high incidence of accidents following attempted buddybreathing - in the first instance I'd probably attribute it to the fact that it's only half taught these days if at all.

 

[sharkbaitDAN]

Wow, this scares me. If someone isn't comfortable in the water, they should stay on the shore. People panic in unexpected situations when they aren't trained properly. The way to avoid panic is training and practise.

If dive training organizations don't instill divers with confidence in the water, then they aren't doing their job properly. And to be clear, I don't mean ignorant confidence, I mean this: I know I can do something because I've done it and practised it, not only in the pool, but also in the ocean.

I believe dive training organizations do a huge disservice by dumbing training down to cater to people who would rather be entertained than actually taught. PADI's idea that an ESA is preferable to buddy breathing is IMHO, an example of this sort of thinking. Why would someone want to risk an ESA when air is an arm's length away? When I did the OW course, my buddy and I buddy-breathed even though we were told not to. It seemed like an obvious thing to do.

Other things I would like to have tried in my course include:

• running out of air intentionally to know exactly what it feels like (not like what happens when the valve is turned off)
• completely removing and replacing gear at depth to simulate getting out of an entanglement
• Etc.

What I don't get is why most people don't seem to want to try stuff like that so they have confidence to deal with the unexpected things that sooner or later will happen.

No amount of training and practice will ever guarantee a person will not panic. It may make it less likely, but even a Navy SEAL could freeze up under fire (not that any would ever admit this ). Panic is something that cannot be predicted. That's why it's so dangerous. Turning the valve off and breathing feels a lot like an OOA. The two agencies I teach for both require removal and replacement at depth. My students currently practice it in almost 20'.

Stephen Ash- For your scenarios, it would entirely depend on how the other diver reacted. At 15 feet, I would not be surprised if the OOA diver just went to the surface. For the other two depths, I would offer my primary if my octo did not work. If it got bad, I know i could ditch my gear and surface. I might get bent, but at least i won't drown. As I said, I would choose to attempt a buddy breath ascent in just about any situation that warranted it. Call me stupid, but at least I won't get sued.

 

[DavidHickey]

"He grabs the octopus and puts it in his mouth. It leaks water, the mouthpiece then falls off or it just breathes totally flooded due to a hole.

Now what? Bolt and pray or buddy breathe ?"


Ok, dumb almost new guy, currently studying for my class. After reading alot of the comments here, most of the people that are still preaching buddy breathing are coming up with comments such as above. Mainly stressing that people do not take care of their Octopuss and such. Would you not inspect your buddies equipment BEFORE diving with them? Ensuring that everything worked? Not sure as I have not finished the class but I thought there was something called a buddy check. I took that as you check your buddy to make sure his equipment is working and that you know his set up before diving in case of an emergency. I actually thought buddy breathing was still in the program and honestly if it is not I'm kinda of relieved. I'm in this class by myself "did not sign up with a friend" and I'm with 5 strangers I have never met. I really did not like the idea of swapping spit with a stranger who I know absolutely NOTHING about. No telling what disease they may have. I would rather ensure thier octo worked before diving. Anyhow just the opinion of someone who is not worthy of an opinion yet.
David

 

[MikeFerrara]

I think it is more along the lines that PADI considers both skills to be dangerous to teach an OW student.

No. If they thought bb was dangerous to teach it wouldn't be optional. It's not required because they don't think it's important due to the wide use of alternate second stages. They have simply written it off as an unneeded skill. Their record show that shortening the class is a priority.

I'd have to agree on a buoyant ascent, that would be dangerous to teach.

Xanthro

A buoyant ascent isn't practiced because it's dangerous. Also if a diver is properly weighted, dumping weights at depth should never be required. However an ESA is practiced and the only difference between the 2 is whether or not you dump weights and the resultant speed

 

[String]

Would you not inspect your buddies equipment BEFORE diving with them?

Because pre breathing on the surface with the air turned on will not show problems such as this. Things like a holed mouth piece or diaphgram cant easily be discovered on the surface.

Regulators also can and do break underwater if banged/squashed and so on.

I'm in this class by myself "did not sign up with a friend" and I'm with 5 strangers I have never met. I really did not like the idea of swapping spit with a stranger who I know absolutely NOTHING about. No telling what disease they may have. I would rather ensure thier octo worked before diving. Anyhow just the opinion of someone who is not worthy of an opinion yet.
David

So lets get this right, you'd rather run the risk of drowning than make yourself familiar with a skill that could possibly stop that happening ? Lots of people breathe using their octopus regulary to check its working and practice - i take it you'd refuse an octopus too ?

 

[GDI]

Let take this from a different perspective..
Don't look at the matheods of ascent as a choice because of their apparent difficulty to perform, look at them as an assessment of risk.

First of all the NORMAL ascent should be performed each and every time. It is not acceptable to run that low on air that you should have to share air. If you are low on air then most likely so is your buddy. It is not acceptable to need to share air as a result of equipment failure due to poor maintenance or inspection techniques. Breakage is another issue. Or to share air as a result of poor air management and monitoring.

Alternate Air Source Ascent is the preferred option in a OOA situation in that no other diver is required to INITIATE this form of SELF RESCUE only to provide an air source. The OOA diver needs only to secure the AAS from the donating diver of choice. Be that by pulling it out of the diver's mouth or grabbing the Alternate 2nd stage which in any case should be secured either by a bungee, alternate Inflator style, pony bottle 2nd stage reg secured to the BCD somewhere. All forms of AAS's are to be located and secured within the golden triangle from the mouth to the ribs, if secured correctly or at all. I don't think any agency differes on this placement. Whether it is instilled into students to do so is a result of poor or good instructor observation and teaching methods is another question.

CESA is another form of SELF RESCUE and demonstrates the ability of a diver to be self dependant in a emergency situation. A situation that should never have happened had they been self dependant enough to monitor their air in the first place. This skill can be perfomed from much deeper than 40 ft and uses Boyles Law to your advantage. It is a CONTROLLED ASCENT and if performed correctly the diver should not need to ascend any quicker than 60 ft per minute. However It is better to break the water's surface gasping for air than to be talking to St Pete at the Pearly gates. This skill is designed with the mind set that your buddy is to far away for you to secure their AAS, this also should not happen. It is a self rescue skill in that it places no other diver at risk.

Buddy Breathing (the great debate here) is a skill that can be performed at any depth. The problem is that you, the donating diver must give up your air supply to provide the air-needing diver with a air source. When a diver gives up their air, this increases the risk and thus makes BB become a RESCUE. This why it is listed lower than CESA. It is a optional skill because the agencies feel that all divers should have a form of AAS. This is not the case. It is a skill from the days when AAS's didn't exist and was developed by divers who first using double hose regs needed a means of sharing air in a emergency situtation and further developed when the use of single hose regs became the norm. Since there are divers out there who still do not own a AAS Octo it is a valuable skill to teach and better prepare your students giving them yet another option to use.

EBSA (Emergency Buoyant Swimming Ascent) this is a last ditch effort to get a diver back to the surface. Unlike the other forms of ascending this requires that the diver drop all weight and weighted objects. Boyles Law will take effect and the diver protects themselves by exhaling which will usually occur in the form of a @#&** sort of word and by exhausting air from the expanding BCD and swimming to the surface, actually in fact swimming would not be required. Although this is a self rescue form of ascent it has a very high risk factor - Lung Expansion Injury, DCS to name a few possibilities. This High risk factor is why it is the last choice in a priority of ascending. It is better to visit a recompression chamber then to be talking to St Pete at the Pearly Gates trying to explain why you didn't have better air management skills in the first place.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Well...it seems that those that think that BB should NOT be a required skill for open water admit that there are situations in ow where using the skill would be the preferred option...that they personally would use the skill.

We have also seen the suggestion that in the event that an OOA diver finds that his buddy's alternate is non-functioning that they should both do a CESA. So is the suggestion that we should train our open water students in the skill of Twin CESAs?

The presumption has been made that a CESA above 60 feet is safer than BB...even when the OOA diver is trying to suck air from his bud's non-funtioning alt.

The other suggestion was that if it's shallow, it sorta depends on how the OOA diver reacts... that the donor should just wait and see what the OOA diver does...the Wait and See CESA. If it is deep then BB (perhaps without training in this skill...I guess?) and if things get bad take off your gear... another skill that we should add to OW...the Ditch and Abandon CESA.

O.K. Perhaps I'm not being fair to you guys. But I've asked the question very clearly...No one has given a clear answer so I'm just gonna go by what you have insinuated...

Stephen