Buoyancy skills

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

We have warm water here so not a lot of weight required. With a steel BP most of them don't need anything additional, if they do then it's normally in weight pockets on the shoulder straps (if ditchable) or attached to the plate if not.

Very few of my students use a weight belt, I only use one to teach them remove and replace. The joys of 30C water...

Because of the additional weight of the rig, very few of them still need to have weight forward of their clavicles, if they do then usually a positive fin will take care of it, or a thicker pair of booties.
 
So having finally read through this thread, I am very interested and have a few queries:

As some of you may have seen I am planning on starting to teach next year again (I am a PADI OWSI) and am very intrigued by the whole teach neutral thing. I find it great, and would like to see it in action.

Having not done the complete update yet (waiting for renewal) but having read through the PADI instructor manual for 2017, I am not 100% sure on how you would accomplish this within the standards of PADI.

Could someone give me a brief outline of how they would run this with a PADI OW course and keep within standards? I read an earlier list in the thread and it made a fair amount of sense.

Are there area's I haven't seen yet? So for an example, it was mentioned, I wouldn't let them do a fin pivot (I agree by the way) - But from what I remember it was mentioned to specifically ask them to do a fin pivot?

SO: is it now maybe changed to be more general (i.e. teach the student to become neutrally buoyant, as a stupid example) and thus you don't have to do a fin pivot, but can do it differently?

Very interested, and this sounds like a good way forward!

Thanks!
 
Actually reading through the confined dives quickly again (I just skimmed through) I can sort of see how this can be accomplished.

From after dive 1 - the shallow part of the pool. i.e. when descending into the deep end, one could start with neutral buoyancy, as it isn't really defined.

EDIT: So I am seeing my own questions answered:

"
Underwater:

  1. With a buddy, descend in water too deep in which to stand using the ve-point method, primarily using the BCD for buoyancy control.

  2. Use low-pressure BCD in ation to become neutrally buoyant. Gently rise and fall in a controlled manner, during inhalation and exhalation.
    "

    i.e. you could get them to descend, and not touch the bottom, i.e. go straight into a hover.
 
They don't have to hover straight out of the gate. A fin pivot or something approximating that, is also neutrally buoyant. It's about two main things:

1) get them used to the idea of "floating" straight out of the gate. In Mod-1 I do the skills almost laying on the bottom. I help them get just enough air in the vest that they are in a low fin pivot and then do the skills from there. During the swimming part of mod-1 just trying hovering and/or VERY slow swimming so this feeling starts to become natural as soon as possible.

and

2) get them used to the idea of "laying down" straight out of the gate. Diving is done laying down, not sitting on the knees. Sitting on the knees while doing skills is a mistake that you will have to fix later on if you want them to learn how to dive. Avoid this mistake and you will have an efficiency gain that you can "cash in" for speed gains later in the training.

Particularly #2 is important for teaching a number of skills correctly. Mask clearing, for example, when you are laying down is a very different skill than it is when you are on the knees.

Don't forget that it's a process. Some people struggle with laying down to dive or learning to float through the water. Give them the chance to experiment with it but you must remain fairly directive with correcting mistakes early. The one I see almost all the time is that venting the BCD has to be done with the hose straight and held behind the head, possibly tilting a bit to the right. For some reason this is very unnatural for a lot of people.

R..
 
They don't have to hover straight out of the gate. A fin pivot or something approximating that, is also neutrally buoyant. It's about two main things:

1) get them used to the idea of "floating" straight out of the gate. In Mod-1 I do the skills almost laying on the bottom. I help them get just enough air in the vest that they are in a low fin pivot and then do the skills from there. During the swimming part of mod-1 just trying hovering and/or VERY slow swimming so this feeling starts to become natural as soon as possible.

and

2) get them used to the idea of "laying down" straight out of the gate. Diving is done laying down, not sitting on the knees. Sitting on the knees while doing skills is a mistake that you will have to fix later on if you want them to learn how to dive. Avoid this mistake and you will have an efficiency gain that you can "cash in" for speed gains later in the training.

Particularly #2 is important for teaching a number of skills correctly. Mask clearing, for example, when you are laying down is a very different skill than it is when you are on the knees.

Don't forget that it's a process. Some people struggle with laying down to dive or learning to float through the water. Give them the chance to experiment with it but you must remain fairly directive with correcting mistakes early. The one I see almost all the time is that venting the BCD has to be done with the hose straight and held behind the head, possibly tilting a bit to the right. For some reason this is very unnatural for a lot of people.

R..
Thanks for the reply, I realize I am bringing up an older thread, but I am playing catch up :D

Sounds good! I like the input thanks!

The one about deflating the BCD really hits home, as this is 99% a problem when you go to Open Water, and something that is always briefed so clearly.

Like why the hell would we want them sitting on their knee's holding the deflater straight up...because then in Open Water when they are horizontal and hold it straight up (i.e. horizontal in reality) it does nothing...gosh! Why haven't we been doing this for ages already! Makes SO much sense :)
 
Well, I just explain to people that air rises. Usually that's enough for people to understand what to do...
 
Could someone give me a brief outline of how they would run this with a PADI OW course and keep within standards? I read an earlier list in the thread and it made a fair amount of sense.

Are there area's I haven't seen yet? So for an example, it was mentioned, I wouldn't let them do a fin pivot (I agree by the way) - But from what I remember it was mentioned to specifically ask them to do a fin pivot?
What Rob (Diver0001) wrote is one way to do it, and it is how I do it. There is nothing in the standards to be concerned about. Every standard can be done this way without any issues. to the amazement of almost everyone who tries it, there isn't a whole lot involved with learning how to do it this way. The students actually find it easier to learn the skills this way when they are not trying to keep their balance while kneeling.

As for being required to do a fin pivot, the fin pivot has not been a requirement for quite a few years now. It was removed because instructors were obsessing about the form of the fin pivot, forgetting that it is not actually a dive skill. the entire purpose was to have students experience the rise and fall associated with breathing. That's it. You can do anything that shows that.

Like why the hell would we want them sitting on their knee's holding the deflater straight up...because then in Open Water when they are horizontal and hold it straight up (i.e. horizontal in reality) it does nothing...gosh! Why haven't we been doing this for ages already! Makes SO much sense :)
Several people, including Diver0001, collaborated on an article on this that PADI published in their professional journal a number of years ago. That is what started the trend. The original draft of that article was more than twice as long as the published version. In that original article, we included a history of the practice, with Dr. Sam Miller helping with that. We realized that there was never really a time when it was done differently. When instruction on scuba skills began, there was nothing to help with buoyancy--the wetsuit had not even been invented yet. Tanks were just strapped on the back, using straps held to the tank with simple bands. there was really no other way to do it. By the time the modern BCD was invented, the practice had become an unquestioned tradition.

A second reason is implied in your most recent question--people incorrectly assumed that instructing while kneeling was required by standards. After PADI published our article on neutrally buoyant instruction, several people on ScubaBoard made it a crusade to try to convince everyone that doing it that way violated standards, and they warned that anyone doing it could be expelled. When we published direct statements from PADI headquarters saying it was perfectly fine to do it that way and no standards prohibited it, that did not deter them. Incredibly enough, they argued that when you write to PADI headquarters about issues related to standards, the person responding from headquarters is only giving his or her opinion, so those statements have no more validity than anyone else's. In one case, they even said that a statement from PADI President and CEO Drew Richardson was just his opinion, and what he was advising instructors to do was a standards violation that could get them expelled.

It is that kind of mindless hysteria that gets in the way of progress.
 
What Rob (Diver0001) wrote is one way to do it, and it is how I do it. There is nothing in the standards to be concerned about. Every standard can be done this way without any issues. to the amazement of almost everyone who tries it, there isn't a whole lot involved with learning how to do it this way. The students actually find it easier to learn the skills this way when they are not trying to keep their balance while kneeling.

Great, will definitely be planning this for my next course then.

As for being required to do a fin pivot, the fin pivot has not been a requirement for quite a few years now. It was removed because instructors were obsessing about the form of the fin pivot, forgetting that it is not actually a dive skill. the entire purpose was to have students experience the rise and fall associated with breathing. That's it. You can do anything that shows that.

I hear you, makes sense. I think my last renewal already had removed it, and reading through the manual now I see that it is more generic now to the rise and fall.

Several people, including Diver0001, collaborated on an article on this that PADI published in their professional journal a number of years ago. That is what started the trend. The original draft of that article was more than twice as long as the published version. In that original article, we included a history of the practice, with Dr. Sam Miller helping with that. We realized that there was never really a time when it was done differently. When instruction on scuba skills began, there was nothing to help with buoyancy--the wetsuit had not even been invented yet. Tanks were just strapped on the back, using straps held to the tank with simple bands. there was really no other way to do it. By the time the modern BCD was invented, the practice had become an unquestioned tradition.

Thanks for the in depth (pun not intended :D ) response. It all makes a lot more sense the way you mention how it all started and where we have ended up.

A second reason is implied in your most recent question--people incorrectly assumed that instructing while kneeling was required by standards. After PADI published our article on neutrally buoyant instruction, several people on ScubaBoard made it a crusade to try to convince everyone that doing it that way violated standards, and they warned that anyone doing it could be expelled. When we published direct statements from PADI headquarters saying it was perfectly fine to do it that way and no standards prohibited it, that did not deter them. Incredibly enough, they argued that when you write to PADI headquarters about issues related to standards, the person responding from headquarters is only giving his or her opinion, so those statements have no more validity than anyone else's. In one case, they even said that a statement from PADI President and CEO Drew Richardson was just his opinion, and what he was advising instructors to do was a standards violation that could get them expelled.

It is that kind of mindless hysteria that gets in the way of progress.

Really don't understand some people that will be so blind to the truth or the right way...I guess some just have serious tunnel vision. Hopefully a lot of that has subsided by now.

Is there a link to the PADI article somewhere?

Thanks!
 
Well, I just explain to people that air rises. Usually that's enough for people to understand what to do...

Hehe, if only most would just learn that so easily :D
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

Back
Top Bottom