Cannot find a reason for AOW certification

[stuartv]

Is it really a requirement of your insurance company? Or is it more a perceived liability issue? When I dive with a charter I always have to sign a waiver. Does that mean nothing? Even if you accept the fact that the dive charter has a requirement to ensure no one dives beyond their limit, it seems most reasonable experienced divers would consider a dive record a much better gauge of ability. It could also be argued in court that a diver who has completed OW, AOW and only 10 dives is not competent and therefore dive shops that rely upon AOW certification are not doing their due diligence.

I believe it is a perceived liability issue. As in, the shop perceives a significantly higher chance of being found at fault if I take someone on a 100' dive and they don't have an AOW card versus if they do.

As a "pro" who doesn't want to get sued and REALLY doesn't want to be found at fault for a diving accident, I do not want to put myself in the position of judging that a person is "capable" of doing a particular dive even though they haven't been certified for the type of diving in question. So, rather than evaluate their skills and experience, I can rely on their certification(s) and be afforded some protection in court on the basis that it wasn't ME that decided that are qualified to dive to 100'. It was PADI/SDI/SSI/XYZ that issued them a card saying they are certified as being trained and meeting that agency's standards for diving to 100'. What is the opinion and judgment of one peon divemaster compared to meeting all the standards and being certified by a large professional organization whose job is to train people to be able to do that dive?

For that matter, part of the process of becoming an instructor is learning how to evaluate students' skills. As someone who is not (yet) an instructor, who am I (or any DM) to evaluate someone and conclude that yes, they are capable of doing a particular dive? Does a DM have training in evaluating other divers' skills? And if I were an instructor (instead of a DM) leading a trip, well then, I might say "yes, I can evaluate you to determine if you are capable of doing a certain dive." But how is that evaluation really going to be different than, essentially, putting them through the relevant class?

It's like another poster said. It's all about CYA. And I'm not saying that with a negative connotation. I don't have a problem with any business owner doing the most that they can to protect themselves from being sued into bankruptcy. And I can certainly understand my shop saying "you are a DM. You are not trained to evaluate divers' skills. You will not lead someone on a dive unless they have a C card that says they are certified to do that dive."

I want to be safe and I also want to do everything I can to eliminate any reason someone might tell me I cannot do a dive. So, I have an Advanced card, and a Deep card, and a Wreck card, and a drysuit card, and a Solo card, and a Nitrox card. And a few more. They aren't that hard to get or that expensive. And I might have learned one or two things in the process of getting those cards. All worth it, to me, to be able to do the dives I want to do without being hassled (or flat-out denied).

 

[Gareth J]

I believe it is a perceived liability issue. As in, the shop perceives a significantly higher chance of being found at fault if I take someone on a 100' dive and they don't have an AOW card versus if they do.

As a "pro" who doesn't want to get sued and REALLY doesn't want to be found at fault for a diving accident, I do not want to put myself in the position of judging that a person is "capable" of doing a particular dive even though they haven't been certified for the type of diving in question. So, rather than evaluate their skills and experience, I can rely on their certification(s) and be afforded some protection in court on the basis that it wasn't ME that decided that are qualified to dive to 100'. It was PADI/SDI/SSI/XYZ that issued them a card saying they are certified as being trained and meeting that agency's standards for diving to 100'. What is the opinion and judgment of one peon divemaster compared to meeting all the standards and being certified by a large professional organization whose job is to train people to be able to do that dive?

For that matter, part of the process of becoming an instructor is learning how to evaluate students' skills. As someone who is not (yet) an instructor, who am I (or any DM) to evaluate someone and conclude that yes, they are capable of doing a particular dive? Does a DM have training in evaluating other divers' skills? And if I were an instructor (instead of a DM) leading a trip, well then, I might say "yes, I can evaluate you to determine if you are capable of doing a certain dive." But how is that evaluation really going to be different than, essentially, putting them through the relevant class?

It's like another poster said. It's all about CYA. And I'm not saying that with a negative connotation. I don't have a problem with any business owner doing the most that they can to protect themselves from being sued into bankruptcy. And I can certainly understand my shop saying "you are a DM. You are not trained to evaluate divers' skills. You will not lead someone on a dive unless they have a C card that says they are certified to do that dive."

I want to be safe and I also want to do everything I can to eliminate any reason someone might tell me I cannot do a dive. So, I have an Advanced card, and a Deep card, and a Wreck card, and a drysuit card, and a Solo card, and a Nitrox card. And a few more. They aren't that hard to get or that expensive. And I might have learned one or two things in the process of getting those cards. All worth it, to me, to be able to do the dives I want to do without being hassled (or flat-out denied).

Excellent.

Mind you, it does get my goat when I've got the card, experience and knowledge and some unqualified individual tells me i can't do the dive.

 

[Centrals]

Why not? Why the seeming negative attitude about it?

I did 4 full specialties that I wanted to do. More, actually. Including Rescue. After I had those and 50 dives logged, I asked my shop about it and they put in my MSD, printed the card, and gave it to me. It didn't cost me anything (beyond the cost of the specialty courses that I wanted to do regardless). What's the problem? Why make a remark that makes it sound like getting an MSD means there's something wrong with me?

If you know what MSD means, then I can just show you my card and you know I've had a certain amount of training and experience. Why is that bad? It's easier for me than showing you a log and a stack of other cards?

1. I needed to complete 5 specialties for the MSD back in 1999. Rescue was a completely different ballgame.
2. Only three of the 5 courses that I had done are actually beneficially to my diving/training. They are: Deep, Nitrox and Multi-level. While the other two, Drift and Search & Recovery were waste of money.
3. The MSD card said nothing about the training. You still need to produce the other card to show what you had been accomplished. In another words you need to show your deep specialty card to prove that you can go to 40m but not the MSD's card alone.
4. There is nothing +ve or -ve, it is all about personal opinion.

 

[doctormike]

For a very experienced recreational diver who is looking for the next step, they might actually want to consider tech training.

It's certainly not that much more in time and cost than a bunch of recreational cards, and it's not really about extreme depths. For me, it was just fascinating and comforting to learn the tech mindset - that you don't just swim around until your SPG or your computer tells you to ascend, but rather that you think about the dive ahead of time, figure out what you can do wth the gas that you want to carry, and anticipate problems before they happen.

It's nice to be able to do a few minutes past that magic NDL wall and realize that you are going to be OK. It's great to spend more time at moderate depths. And it's a lot of fun to really think about your equipment and optimize it. Yeah, there are some gear costs, but less than most people think. Of course, it's not for everybody, especially for people who don't have the ability to dive that often.

But I would certainly recommend that any very experienced recreational diver with some time and funds available not just dismiss it out of hand...

 

[HantsDiver]

For a very experienced recreational diver who is looking for the next step, they might actually want to consider tech training.

It's certainly not that much more in time and cost than a bunch of recreational cards, and it's not really about extreme depths. For me, it was just fascinating and comforting to learn the tech mindset - that you don't just swim around until your SPG or your computer tells you to ascend, but rather that you think about the dive ahead of time, figure out what you can do wth the gas that you want to carry, and anticipate problems before they happen.

It's nice to be able to do a few minutes past that magic NDL wall and realize that you are going to be OK. It's great to spend more time at moderate depths. And it's a lot of fun to really think about your equipment and optimize it. Yeah, there are some gear costs, but less than most people think. Of course, it's not for everybody, especially for people who don't have the ability to dive that often.

But I would certainly recommend that any very experienced recreational diver with some time and funds available not just dismiss it out of hand...

Which tech agency will take an experienced OW diver without them having AOW or a further qualification for technical training?

I'm sure there is one - but I've not heard of them.

 

[scubafanatic]

AOW certification makes some dive ops happy, and without it you may not be allowed to go on some dive trips or sites, or face severe depth restrictions at best. Life is way too short to fight over this, just get the freakin' AOW card and be done with it, it's a trivial investment in time/money in the grand scheme of things.

 

[doctormike]

Which tech agency will take an experienced OW diver without them having AOW or a further qualification for technical training?

I'm sure there is one - but I've not heard of them.

No, you would have to do training beyond OW, I didn't mean to imply that you could start AN/DP courses with only OW.

I was just saying that it's a path that a lot of people dismiss without consideration because the tech world seems daunting from the outside. But not every tech diver is doing huge dives with hours of deco, trimix depths, or long cave pushes. Some are just enjoying the wrecks and the fishes for a little longer and a little less depth limitations. For example, one of the popular wrecks in this area (the Oregon) is low lying and at 125 FSW. So if you are a single tank recreational diver, you are going to wake up very early, spend all day getting out there for two 12 minute dives.

It's just an option that may not have occurred to people, that's all. So I thought that I would mention it for the people who have been doing OW dives for a long time and might enjoy a new challenge.

 

[stuartv]

Which tech agency will take an experienced OW diver without them having AOW or a further qualification for technical training?

I'm sure there is one - but I've not heard of them.

There's this one called TDI. They have a class called Intro to Tech. It only requires OW. Nitrox and Adv Nitrox also only require OW.

 

[doctormike]

There's this one called TDI. They have a class called Intro to Tech. It only requires OW. Nitrox and Adv Nitrox also only require OW.

No, that's just intro to tech. It's not a tech diving course, and it doesn't count for training, AFAIK. To do TDI AN you need nitrox, and to do DP you need advanced.

 

[george_austin]

At least NAUI acknowledged my previous training (also from the 60s) and experience when I asked for a C-Card with updated terminology. I was expecting something along the lines of AOW or ASD (advanced scuba diver) but they sent me a Master Diver card. Somehow I suspect that at least part of our training back then was still more involved than what you might get in a half-dozen or so modern courses combined, but some advances have been made in proven techniques and, of course, some of the equipment is a lot better. But does my "advanced" certification get me on dive boats that I might not otherwise be allowed on? I'm not really sure. So few dive ops have asked to see my card that it's not really conclusive. And as I've said before, most dive ops seem to be more interested in when was my last dive and how likely am I to die while diving due to medical conditions. They let me do a 90' wall/drift dive when my old C-Card said "Scuba Diver" on it.

I take back what I said earlier: I did inquire about some local dives and they did specify certification levels required for various dives. I just didn't think about it because, after all, I'm a Master Diver which makes me qualified to do anything and everything, even if I know nothing about it

Recently my girlfriend took a PADI OW course but I think she received more thorough training than what you might normally get but that was the instructor's choice to go beyond the minimum requirements of PADI. And, of course, he knew I was watching the whole time

Do you notice any mentoring going on in the last 20 years? I'm trying to figure out when that fell out of fashion. Probably around the same time as the internet and social media became popular. Nowadays building a relationship with someone only goes as far as sending a friend request to Facebook or following them on Snapchat - whatever that is . .
I mean mentoring in everything dive related from soup to nuts - from how to beach dive to how to service your own equipment - yes, even your "life support" equipment. We didn't have to "pay" for any of that stuff except in hamburgers and soft drinks and the occasional pack of cigarettes.

I have never had a dive op even bring up the subject of certification level required for any dive. I suppose I'm covered because I have my PADI Pro number memorized and they can just look it up on their computer but your idea of calling NAUI and asking for my original Basic Scuba Diver card issued in the latter half of the 20th century would probably raise some eyebrows followed by a short e-mail stating - "Dear Sir - we don't keep records past a certain expiration date"