Cannot find a reason for AOW certification

[stuartv]

With reference to DAN's dive insurance, I am very confident they will cover dive injuries you might sustain at 30m as that is still within the limits for recreational diving. The same applies to their travel insurance. After all of the discussions on this board, I am amazed that some folks can't let go of the myth that OW divers are limited to 60'. Yes, some dive ops may limit an OW diver to those limits, but I usually find that once the DM figures out you have your act together and don't need close monitoring, the 60' "limit" goes out the window. On a recent trip to French Polynesia, after one dive @60' or so to assess capabilities, and then asking what depth I was comfortable diving to, we all dove to 100+ft. If I ever find a dive op that is hard over about having the AOW card, I will know about their policy before I sign up for the dives, and just find someone else to dive with, or dive some other place. Life is too short to put up that kind of BS. Yes, I know it's their boat and their rules, but it is my money and for me, that rules.

I am a DM for my local shop. The instructions from my boss are: I do not lead anyone a dive that is deeper than their certification limit. If they only have OW, that limit is 60'. AOW, the limit is 100'. Full Deep specialty, the limit is 130'. The reason is simple: Being sure our insurance will cover it if there is an accident. If I take someone with only OW, no matter how much experience they allegedly have, to 100' and there is an accident, it is TOO easy for their lawyer to show that I took them to 100' with no proof that they were qualified to go that deep. And I said allegedly because it is too easy to fake evidence of experience. Looking at someone in the water and then deciding that they are okay to go deeper is also no help when you're being sued. People who are doing that are putting themselves out on a limb.

If I have to go through it all over again I will still complete the AOW with couple of speciality courses but definitely NOT MSD.

Why not? Why the seeming negative attitude about it?

I did 4 full specialties that I wanted to do. More, actually. Including Rescue. After I had those and 50 dives logged, I asked my shop about it and they put in my MSD, printed the card, and gave it to me. It didn't cost me anything (beyond the cost of the specialty courses that I wanted to do regardless). What's the problem? Why make a remark that makes it sound like getting an MSD means there's something wrong with me?

If you know what MSD means, then I can just show you my card and you know I've had a certain amount of training and experience. Why is that bad? It's easier for me than showing you a log and a stack of other cards?

 

[kelemvor]

My wife and I are avid divers, we have been dive buddies for 30 years. I am AOW but she is just OW. We have talked about getting her AOW but just can't seem to see any reason to spend the money or time. She has 500 plus dives, excellent buoyancy, doesn't get lost when we dive in Bonaire , constantly dives to 80- 100 feet and follows all safe diving practices. We don't feel.any need to get further badges just to say we have them. We think that experience is much better than any badge we may have. Only once did her cert level, or lack of, be questioned (Florida key when we wanted to dive Speigal) but once the master watched us it was not a problem. How many of you did not pursue advanced certifications? Bill ( i have AOW but was 20 years young when i got it....i am now 58)

Operators that sell dive training tend to require you to have AOW on dives deeper then 60' - this is a particular problem in the Keys. If you run into one of those (I know for sure Rainbow Reef is one) then you'll need it to do a deep dive with them.

 

[Clark Fletcher]

Knowing what I know now about AOW certification, I'm somewhat embarrassed to admit that I have an AOW cert (with less than 25 dives). That being said, I'm afraid that, at least here in the US, we're probably going to see an increase in dive ops that require AOW cert for certain dives before we see fewer. While it's my personal opinion that an AOW cert is for the most part meaningless (including my own), it's a simple matter of liability.

If a dive op requires a diver to present an AOW Cert card to go a specific dive, should something happen where the diver gets injured and they end up in court after the fact, the dive op can argue that the extent of their liability was ensuring that the diver didn't go on a dive that was beyond their capability. That assumes of course that the dive op didn't do anything that was grossly negligent that directly resulted in the diver's injury. Further, the dive op could also argue that a card that says "Advanced" on it (regardless of the diver's actual ability) from a certifying agency was sufficient for them to confirm that the diver was capable enough. However, unless the dive op has a complete copy of the diver's logs to present in court, they would likely have a much harder time convincing a jury that it was okay to let the diver go on the dive based on their experience level. And, even if they did have a full set of dive logs, it then becomes a judgment call and most likely wouldn't be sufficient to absolve the dive op of liability.

I know a lot of divers who don't have AOW certs that I'd feel much safer diving with than some who do. But, the sad reality is, that's the world we live in.

 

[JamesBon92007]

The only time I recall seeing a specific certification for a specific dive was in Los Cabos where Nitrox certification was required for a particular dive. In Kona, Hawai'i the dive op required a previous night dive for the manta ray dive and if you hadn't done one then they required a daytime dive beforehand so they could asses you. Nothing about having another C-Card. Well, I had no previous night dive and wasn't required to do the extra "assessment" dive--they let me do it based upon my experience. If you are planning on doing cave diving (or other specialty) then I would expect that a "cave diver" certification would be required if you are diving with an op.

I'm not saying it can't or won't happen but my interpretation of PADI's statement concerning OW certification is that as you gain more experience you are no longer "limited" to the OW suggested limitations. IOW, once you dive past 60 feet (with a qualified dive buddy) you are no longer limited to 60 feet. I think it's fairly clear that PADI's limits are only suggestions, and certainly not some kind of law. To me your wife's 500+ dives are far more meaningful than an "advanced" C-Card belonging to someone with 25 dives or whatever.

 

[Gareth J]

It might be better to look outside PADI, at one of the tech diving agencies. Not to become a 'technical diver'. But to do a course that gives you the depth qualification and where you might learn something or gain a qualification in something that you can use in your regular diving. ADP (Advance Diving Procedures) or Advanced NItrox, will probably give you an increased depth qualification - 40m, decompression training, higher O2 mixes, accelerated decompression.

The only issue is accessing the courses. You would need an instructor who will take diving experience in lue of qualification, with demonstrated in water skills.

Basically go for value added.

I am qualified with multiple agencies. My original qualification was PADI (OW). Most of my qualifications are with BSAC, these are not well understood in the USA. So in the USA my qualifications jump from OW to TDI unlimited trimix, or CCR trimix.

It is worth being aware that diving operations are cautious of taking on risk in the event of an accident. Hence the depth limit based on qualification. Some countries it is actually illegal to take someone beyond there qualification. Others, all is great until there is an accident, then its go straight to jail, without passing go.
One thing that bugs me, is that 95% of my diving normally includes compulsory decompression 2 mins - 60+mins. In the USA dive operators almost have a heart attack when you complete a dive which involves any decompression.

Gareth

 

[ljpm]

I am a DM for my local shop. The instructions from my boss are: I do not lead anyone a dive that is deeper than their certification limit. If they only have OW, that limit is 60'. AOW, the limit is 100'. Full Deep specialty, the limit is 130'. The reason is simple: Being sure our insurance will cover it if there is an accident.

Is it really a requirement of your insurance company? Or is it more a perceived liability issue? When I dive with a charter I always have to sign a waiver. Does that mean nothing? Even if you accept the fact that the dive charter has a requirement to ensure no one dives beyond their limit, it seems most reasonable experienced divers would consider a dive record a much better gauge of ability. It could also be argued in court that a diver who has completed OW, AOW and only 10 dives is not competent and therefore dive shops that rely upon AOW certification are not doing their due diligence.

 

[ljpm]

It might be better to look outside PADI, at one of the tech diving agencies. Not to become a 'technical diver'. But to do a course that gives you the depth qualification and where you might learn something or gain a qualification in something that you can use in your regular diving. ADP (Advance Diving Procedures) or Advanced NItrox, will probably give you an increased depth qualification - 40m, decompression training, higher O2 mixes, accelerated decompression.

Great idea but you will still have to deal with shops/charters that will only accept an AOW c-card. If they are not reasonable enough to accept a dive log of over 200 dive how do you convince them that different training is equivalent.

 

[Darnold9999]

I have been denied access to dives based on my cert card. It was a very old NAUI "Scuba Diver". Op said I needed AOW to do the dive - notwithstanding I had more than 100 dives, recent deep dives and the card when issued was not restricted to 60 feet (or anything else for that matter) Enrolled in a Rescue course and have had no issues and found the rescue course to be useful.

Now I have a Solo card that also includes multiple gas certifications so just use the one card for everything I might want to do. Most operators will do a check out dive in this situation, but this particular one was adamant so ... got the card to avoid it happening again.

 

[Gareth J]

AOW is a PADI specific qualification.
There are a number of technical agencies that are well known in the USA. Often the tech qualifications have stated limits on them, e.g.. Depth 40m, Mix 80% O2 Max, Helium 20% max

What you are looking for is a qualification that states or is acknowledges an increase of depth over the standard PADI OW limits. Ideally one that is well recognised in the areas you intend to dive. It gives the DM or charter plausible deniability - I saw a card that qualified them for the dive they are doing! Thats why I took there money and allowed them to do it!

 

[shmuggy]

I also never got AOW certified and 23 years later I have no regrets. I have come across a few LOBs that will not let you go unless you have one. Last I heard, if you want to go to Malpelo the Columbian government insists on it. Other than that, I see no reason to spend the money on it. Better to spend the money on dive trips