Canon S100

[Nemrod]

Let me see if the omnipotent one can try to explain the problem a little better. Most wet accessory lenses are designed for 35mm native lens such as the popular Inon UFL165AD and Inon UWL100-67mm, Ikelite W20. Quite a few are designed for a native 28mm lens such as the Inon UWL100-28AD, the new Inon UWL-H100 and the Fisheye UWL-04.

Since the S90/95 are 28mm cameras they require NO zooming with the 28mm group lenses listed above and only one step of zoom with the 35mm group of lenses listed above. Since the camera lens retreats during the initial zoom (to about 50mm on the S90/100) this means the camera lens is moving AWAY from the accessory lens and this is never a good thing but since the lens is only a 3.8X the rearward movement is very small initially. The new S100 will require zooming two steps for the 35mm group lenses and one step at least for the 28mm group lenses. Even a mm matters and means the difference between vignetting and blurred edges.

The S100 has some great improvements, unfortunately, the longer zoom and wider FL is not going to play nice with the current crop of accessory lenses, that is my educated statement. Like I said, if it turns out I am wrong, superb, great, works for me.

Maybe there will be a dry port lens or dome made available by the housing manufactures, perhaps they will be able to keep the port extremely close and no longer than that of the former S series cameras despite the 5X zoom requirement and with a little luck, 28mm accessory lenses may work, just may work. Of course, if the buyer has no desire to use an accessory lens, does not matter.

I am not going to be willing to pay more for less versatility even if the camera does have HD which I never use or a cool burst rate. I think this new camera is going to move some people to the increasingly versatile APS sensor size or M4:3 pocket cameras becoming popular now.

N

 

[flareside]

Let me see if the omnipotent one can...

N

Gotcha!!!!

(Honestly, if you wanted to call me out on the graphic, all you would have to do was point out that the 27mm dimension shown is actually the depth of the closed camera not the length of the lens as this is a persistent mistake made by dpreview.)

 

[huwporter]

BTW, the S series lens, as is common on many compact cameras from Canon and others, actually gets shorter (retracts) as you initially zoom and then about half way through the range it begins to extend and finally extends further than the minimum focal length starting position. Since the S100 has the same size sensor, basically the same size optical elements and a greater zoom range, it will need to rack further in and out to accommodate the focal range than the S90/S95. It is not an assumption, it is optical physics.

It's not necessarily as simple as that - the IXUS 220HS has a 24-120mm equivalent lens (on a slightly smaller sensor), and extends very nearly as far at full wide angle as at telephoto - only a couple of mm difference - and works with some wet wideangle lenses. The Panasonic LX5 is also 24mm, and Nauticam make a matching wetmate mini dome for their housing that recovers the full wide angle. Wide is more challenging with a 24mm lens, sure - but not impossible, it'll depend on the exact characteristics of the lens which won't be known until the camera is out.

Cheers,
Huw

 

[Nemrod]

Gotcha!!!!

(Honestly, if you wanted to call me out on the graphic, all you would have to do was point out that the 27mm dimension shown is actually the depth of the closed camera not the length of the lens as this is a persistent mistake made by dpreview.)

I don't really want to gotcha or anything else. I am sorry that my writing might aggravate you at times. I take it really as my failing and no fault upon you. Most people who have met me in real life find me rather quiet and unassuming but I admit, I can be aggravating and sometimes I even do it on purpose .

Whilst swimming my two miles today, about the beginning of mile two I kinda of got in the zone and the world passed away but for the entire mile leading up to it was going on in my head about your "ego" comment, lol . I was so mad, I burned the water up PO the sporty tri guy that usually likes to (try to) lap me. I bet he figured I took some kind of super power steroids or something, nope, just a dose of Scubaboard ! .

It also occurs to me while swimming along that if the S100 lens were to have no more rack distance due to it's new design than the S90 despite it's greater focal length range, that is a big if, then I might just be wrong, imagine that. And, I hope I am.

N

 

[Nemrod]

It's not necessarily as simple as that - the IXUS 220HS has a 24-120mm equivalent lens (on a slightly smaller sensor), and extends very nearly as far at full wide angle as at telephoto - only a couple of mm difference - and works with some wet wideangle lenses. The Panasonic LX5 is also 24mm, and Nauticam make a matching wetmate mini dome for their housing that recovers the full wide angle. Wide is more challenging with a 24mm lens, sure - but not impossible, it'll depend on the exact characteristics of the lens which won't be known until the camera is out.

Cheers,
Huw

You make some good points but what is known, among several things about the lens, the lens will have to retreat rearward as it is zoomed to 28mm or 35mm, whichever is appropriate, for the accessory lens. As well, the characteristics of the available accessory lenses are in fact known very well. As I stated, many of these lenses, the Inon UFL165AD in particular, simply do not like or tolerate zooming very little or at all. The S90/95 will work with the UFL165AD but it must be kept right to the port glass. This is because the camera must be zoomed to eliminate vignetting. When the camera lens is zoomed it moves away from the port. This not only causes the potential for vignetting but the lens begins to lose corner/edge sharpness as if looking through the bottom of a coke bottle. If you were in my secret basement lab where I perform omnipotent experiments then it would be easy to demonstrate this. This is true of all of these lenses, just especially so on the UFL165AD. The UFL165AD just BARELY works with the S90/95. The large rear optical element of the new Inon H100 may be tolerant of a small amount of zoom needed, hopefully, with the S100 to move the lens from 24mm to 28mm and the rearward movement will be minimal. A single mm or two additional distance between the camera lens and the accesory lens is all the difference between working OK or not at all.

What exactly do y'all think is not known about the S100 lens? The only thing I do not know is it's length delta from neutral to maximum zoom focal length. As soon as I know that number then there will be no more guesstimation at all. The rest can be studied with a ray trace as it's diameter is known and it's focal range. Those are the things that define it's compatibly with a particular accessory lens.

N

 

[huwporter]

What exactly do y'all think is not known about the S100 lens?

Specifically, the difference in lens extension between full wideangle and full telephoto. As already mentioned, the IXUS 220HS has a 24-120mm equivalent zoom, which is almost as extended at full wide as at full tele. This means that the lens is very close to the housing port at full wide, and means that some accessory wet wide lenses work fine. The extension difference for the S100 won't be known til the camera is out, and can't be easily imputed from the specs. It is far from a rule that wide lenses must be shorter than tele lenses - for one simple counterexample that I'm familiar with, the Pentax 16-45mm APS-C format zoom reaches it's maximum extension at 16mm.

Those are the things that define it's compatibly with a particular accessory lens.

If you are saying, "this particular camera won't work with this particular accessory lens that I already own" - then yep, you are very most probably correct. But if you are saying "compact cameras with 24mm lenses cannot and will not ever have wet wide options for them" then I would say that you are betting against innovation rather than some immutable law, and I would have to disagree with you. If not at least, because I own a compact with a 24mm lens and a wet wide converter that works fine with it - at 24mm.

Cheers,
Huw

 

[rob1967]

Ok, my confusion is slowly beginning to ease a bit. So maybe it is best to wait for the S 100 to come out, and see what wet lenses will go with it? I am in no big rush, I can tough it out with my current SeaLife rig a bit longer...

 

[Nemrod]

If you are saying, "this particular camera won't work with this particular accessory lens that I already own" - then yep, you are very most probably correct. But if you are saying "compact cameras with 24mm lenses cannot and will not ever have wet wide options for them" then I would say that you are betting against innovation rather than some immutable law, and I would have to disagree with you. If not at least, because I own a compact with a 24mm lens and a wet wide converter that works fine with it - at 24mm.

Cheers,
Huw

I think you do misunderstand. As well, I would not hold my breath until Inon produces a new 24mm "type" lens as they just came out with the H100 which is a 28mm "type" lens. But it would be nice.

There may well be lenses produced at some point that will work with the S100, but, right now, they don't exist. I am curious as to which lens you are using that you alluded to. I think Dyron has something that will work with a 24mm but Dyron products are sort of an enigma here in the States.

One of the nice things about the S95/S90 is that at least in the original FIX housing and in the Recsea housing they work fine with just about any wet lens available now or in the recent past with the correct mount adapter installed, nearly all of them. It was great simply to move my lenses forward to my new system without having to buy a bunch of new equipment. Some wet accessory lenses are close to 1,000 dollars by the time the mount is added which makes popping for a new lens every time the newest whizz bang camera comes along impractical for most people.

Yes, if the lens extension of the S100 is no more than that of the S90/95 and if the manufacturers make a 24mm compatible accessory lens, then it may work just fine, it may, may be OK with a single step of zoom with the new Inon H100. Are you going to buy this camera? Best wait a few months to see what happens, more definition of what lenses will work should be available by then and how the better housing manufacturers are going to deal with this camera. I can borrow one from my local camera friend just as I have done several times and set it up on my optical bench with a few different lenses. Then I can pretty quickly see what it can do.

If the distance from the camera lens to the accessory lens is but a single mm greater on the S100 than with the S90 or S95, you will have a big problem with any wet lens. They MUST be close to the camera lens and even with the S90/95, it is pushing the limit as it is, it is OK, but it is a good thing it is no more distance than it is from camera lens to accessory lens.
N

 

[girellator]

I've find a picture of the WP- DC 43. It seems that the lense don't need such a long port to extend .
Plongimage - Caisson WP-DC43 pour Canon S100
Now we must hope

 

[Nemrod]

I was forced to go to Best Buy the other day for a present for my niece. So, I took my S90 back to the camera section and compared it to the S100. I hate to tell y'all this but the S100 lens does IN FACT rack in and out further than the S90/95. That is not a good thing for wide angle lens use. The port will have to be longer and the distance the camera lens is at from the port glass at the 28mm and 35mm settings (as required for various wet lenses) is noticeably greater.

N