Catalina Diver died today w/ Instructor

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bsee65 ... that's not what I got from Petunia's post, the last part of her post stating that as an instructor ...
" You have a responsibility to do your job to the highest legal and moral standard possible short of sacrificing your life and health."
I think this is a reasonable statement.

So you would just ignore the following statement?:
"Your family has a right to expect that you will put their emotional, physical and financial needs ahead of the random student who winds up in your class."

Morally, if you get someone into a jam, you are obligated to do what you can to get them out of it. Commit suicide? That would be pretty stupid since your death under such circumstances probably wouldn't save anyone. That said, if you put someone in a position to be killed because of your actions and you can save them by sacrificing your own life, that is the moral thing to do. I wouldn't expect that everyone would make the sacrifice, and I doubt the law would either.

On the other hand, if you thought you could save the life of a student in exchange for an extended stay in a chamber and an end to your diving career, would you make the attempt?
 
Eddie would go! So would anyone who understands malama, pono and koa.
 
I was taking her statement as a whole ... the last part I quoted was referring back to your post about family, financial well being ... I thought that taken all together her post made sense ... "to the highest legal and moral standard" ... sounds like all you could ask of someone.
How far you take the "sacrificing my health" issue is for each person to decide (How far do you go? do you, even if if it left you severely crippled, financially ruined, and unable to care for your kids and family?) ... Much like rescuing someone, it is a judgment call ... a person you dive with, a student , a loved one .. all are different, you are going to have differing levels of acceptable risk (for you) for each one them
or ... if it's your fault they are in a jamb (didn't see that mentioned, except in your post) that's also going to have a different level of risk (and responsibility, legally and morally)
 
Sir: with all due respect (and I do mean that sincerely as you do have far more experience with teaching and diving than I do) I'm not sure that I have a personal "agenda" other than my position, based on my personal teaching experience, that situations can arise that are beyond one's ability to control and that being unable to control some situations (as in my previously described gorilla student's ascent to the surface in the pool) does not necessarily indicate a failure on the part of the instructor. My student had demonstrated a skill successfully a number of times with no indications of nervousness or hesitation. To suggest without having seen the student that there were signs I missed that he had not really mastered the skill is simply prima facie not reasonable. I thanked LeAnne because my understanding (which may be flawed) of your stated position is that the instructor (in this case me!) must have missed something and did not prepare the student adequately. I do not believe that to be the case. I am one who is willing to admit errors when I make them in hopes of learning not making the same error twice. I do not believe I made an error in this case.
I suspect that you are wrong, I suspect that there were more clues than you'd possibly believe; clues that, had you been attuned to them, would have indicated to you what was about to happen, before it happened. Now I could be wrong, but I don't think so. All my experience tells me that I should not think so. I really don't want to jam this down your throat, or put you down, because expanding your SA as an Instructor is oe of the most important things that you can do, and I feel badly that I may get in the way of your being able to do so because I made an issue of it.

The reason that I'm 90 percent certain that there were indicators before the bolt is because over the last three decades or so, looking at bolts of different types has been kind of a hobby of mine. At every ITC that I've ever run or staffed, as we were preparing for the problem solving dives I told a story about my ITC experience, as a warning for what I did not want to see happen.

There was a staff member at my ITC who came out from NAUI HQ. He was very full of himself but rather inexperienced. In fact the HQ Guy had far less diving and teaching experience than I did. I drew him for the problem solving dive.

We were at Salsbury Quarry (sp), Ohio. I was to set the scene, and then take eight simulated students, including the chap from HQ, out to the raft to simulate teaching a rear entry from a boat. Part of the rules of the game was that no staff member could do something that had not actually happened to them.

I'd set the scene as Dive 5, the final OW dive in a 42 hour course. We got out to the raft, I positioned all the students, having given them strict and clear instructions about how they were to enter the water with an inflated BC in turn. Just as the last student got into position the HO chap backrolls into the water and disappears under the surface. I secured my group and went and got him, following his bubbles down. When we got to the surface he announced that I had failed the exercise because I had lost control of my group. Well ... we got into a nasty exchange of words, his point being that he'd managed to get away and mine being that if by Dive 5 you hadn't sorted the squirrels out, well ... you weren't much of an instructor. Fortunately Lee Somers agreed with my analysis and I was able to repeat the dive with a different skill and Peter Carrol of Temple as my evaluator rather than the dweeb from HQ.

As a result of that I have always led a discussion of indicators that staff members should display as warning signs before doing something stupid. Many you undoubtedly know, watch out for divers at the front and back of the line, watch out for divers that forget their gear, that hesitate when asked to perform a skill, that half fill their mask by letting a little water trickle in rather than just pulling it away from their face, there are any number of clues that show discomfort, ill at ease, or downright fear. I'll be damned if just about every staff member there doesn't always know a few symptoms to watch out for. Frankly, taking this approach for as many years as I have has turned it from a laundry list of symptoms to a holistic (I hate that word), almost gestalt, approach to predicting trouble based on a myriad of attributes. So I am always watching, always heading off the next problem before it even happens. I feaverently and respectfully hope that I can convince you to start looking at each and every student as a potential squirrel underwater, allow no complacency, practice defensive instruction, just as you do defensive diving, "what am I going to do if he ...?" Try that somewhat paranoid approach for a few classes, and guess what ... you will begin to have fewer problem students, because you will, in no time at all, be fixing the problems that they're about to have before they do, and they will learn without ever having to go through those failures.
 
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So you would just ignore the following statement?:
"Your family has a right to expect that you will put their emotional, physical and financial needs ahead of the random student who winds up in your class."

Morally, if you get someone into a jam, you are obligated to do what you can to get them out of it. Commit suicide? That would be pretty stupid since your death under such circumstances probably wouldn't save anyone. That said, if you put someone in a position to be killed because of your actions and you can save them by sacrificing your own life, that is the moral thing to do. I wouldn't expect that everyone would make the sacrifice, and I doubt the law would either.

On the other hand, if you thought you could save the life of a student in exchange for an extended stay in a chamber and an end to your diving career, would you make the attempt?

You have a responsibility to do your job to the highest legal and moral standard possible short of sacrificing your life and health. Just my .02 (this statement in my original post is the thread that runs through the entire post)

If you have performed your job to the highest legal and moral standard YOU would not have GOT THEM in a jam or put someone in a position to be killed because of your actions. That sounds like criminal negligence to me! If I was responsible for putting someone's life at risk I would certainly consider it my responsibility to do whatever was necessary to correct the situation.

That is a totally different story from what I was trying to say and what I perceived this situation to be. This dive involved a certified OW diver with independent dive experience taking an AOW course. There has been absolutely no evidence presented here that makes me believe the instructor Got the student into a Jam or put them into a position to be killed because of (the instructor's) actions.
An instructor should do all they reasonably can to attain/maintain the highest skill level they can. The student has chosen to enter a hostile environment the instructor has not forced them into it. Few instructor get to "choose" their students. If the student chooses to do something that is not consistent with their training... the instructor should use their training to effect a rescue. If the instructor forfeits their own life to effect a rescue they have NOT followed their training. I have never heard of a training program that says two corpses are better than one!

I take my commitments to my family very seriously. If you want to lock onto the financial aspect... I can elaborate. I am not talking about the inconvenience of missing a week or two of work here and "financial comfort" I will not see my family homeless, in debt and bereft because of my actions. They have a right to expect me to protect them from physical, emotional and financial ruin... not to cause it.

I have seen the pain on family members faces while I zipped their loved ones into body bags! I will not put my loved ones through that because I throw my life away! I have seen the pain on family members faces coping with loved ones so badly injured they are living bodies with no minds with no hope of recovery... the family is tied to a body in a hospital bed. We do not live in a vacuum.. what we do impacts others and that must be considered.
 
I am 6'3" 220 lbs., I had a student who was a football player, 6' 5" 250 lbs. (at least) and all muscle. We were doing a mask flood exercise, he could not clear his mask, I had a hand on his BC, I saw his eyes go wide and grabbed him before he even started moving, he got his legs under him and we were on the surface of the pool in very short order.

Stedel, I see your point. But Thallass is onto something. Isn't it possible that there signs that football player was not comfortable in the water? Maybe water up the nose problems prior to this? A general lack of comfort with a flooded mask perhaps?

Would you have brought this student to Open Water shortly after the bolt? Not me. I would have wanted that the student to get A LOT more pool training before going to OW. If someone bolts in the pool, there's a problem. Open Water conditions, especially cold water, will exacerbate the problem.

I have started teaching an OW class. My students wated to go to OW during the Christmas-New Years break. I told them that it would be January before we go to OW. They just don't have the comfort level in the water yet. There's probably some disappointment with the fact that they won't dive at Christmas, but that's the way it has to be.

Sometimes getting people comfortable in the water takes time. Good Instruction is partly about patience.
 
I have questions just for the instructors here (not that I don't appreciate everyone's input, but this is directly related to standards and practices for instructors) that work through an LDS environment (again, I know independant instructors have more leeway): Does your shop/agency have any prescreening policy or procedure in place before taking on continuing education (post BOW) students? Is it allowed by your agency? If not, would you be in favor of such a policy? Can you decline a student based on your feeling that they are not ready for a specific level of training?

Many of you get students that you did not train for OW so have no history with these students, and most AOW/Specialty classes take place in an open water environment. How do you get hints of possible issues without ever being able to see someone in the water first?
 
Does your shop/agency have any prescreening policy or procedure in place before taking on continuing education (post BOW) students?

I don't know what postBOW is. Agency standards states that instructors should "pre-screen" students to ensure that they are suitable for the proposed course. A medical form must be completed. Sometimes a medical doctor's approval may be required.


Is it allowed by your agency? If not, would you be in favor of such a policy?

I favor pre-screening.

Can you decline a student based on your feeling that they are not ready for a specific level of training?


Yes. Both my agency and my LDS so permit. Having said that, my LDs owner would be annoyed and another Instructor would probably take on the declined student.

Many of you get students that you did not train for OW so have no history with these students, and most AOW/Specialty classes take place in an open water environment. How do you get hints of possible issues without ever being able to see someone in the water first?

This is a tough issue, as I have suggested in other posts. I do a "totality of the circumstances" test. There are a lot of questions that I ask myself.
* How much diving and have they done? What kind of diving have they done?
* When? When were they certified?
* Do they look like they are in decent shape?
* Do they listen? Do they seem smart?
* Are they taking the course seriously? Did they do the homework well?
* Do they have the appropriate gear?
* Do they look like they are feeeling well?
* Are they comfortable diving? (See below.)
* Am I uncomfortable with taking them on in the class?

Also, I move away from standards a bit here. For AOW, for the 1st dive, I do a so-called Peak Performance Buoyancy dive. We spend the entire dive working on buoyancy and on reviewing basic skills. For example, I have them do Mask Clearing skills and Alternate Air Source skills. We also do hovering. If they can't do those skills well, we're done. Standards require that we work on hovering, but standards do not mandate they we work on other skills. Dive #1 is done in shallow water (15' to 30' generally).

On subsequents dives (Dives #2 and #3), I watch them carefully. If they are not doing well, I will not bring them on the Deep Dive, which, for me, is dive #4 of of the AOW program.

I did have divers who did not do their AOW homework, I never gave them cards.

Does that answer your question?
 
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