Catalina Diver died today w/ Instructor

[merxlin]

Research Diving Checkouts, similar problem, radical solution.

A great solution.

 

[Thalassamania]

A great solution.

Walt was about the best that there ever was, I learned a lot from that man.

 

[Ayisha]

For AOW, for the 1st dive, I do a so-called Peak Performance Buoyancy dive. We spend the entire dive working on buoyancy and on reviewing basic skills. For example, I have them do Mask Clearing skills and Alternate Air Source skills. We also do hovering. If they can't do those skills well, we're done. Standards require that we work on hovering, but standards do not mandate they we work on other skills. Dive #1 is done in shallow water (15' to 30' generally).

Perhaps this offshoot on training practices will become another separate thread, but I must ask, why are you "done" if the diver does not perform the basic skills well? The diver was already certified by someone else, albeit poorly, and this is your opportunity to intervene and help that diver develop proficiency. You could help them rather than releasing that person from instruction yet again to fend for themselves in the open water they were certified for yet are ill prepared to dive.

I have seen dedicated instructors take students on extra dives without compensation because there was a willingness to learn and a desire by the instructor to produce proficient, self-reliant divers - and they managed to do just that. I have seen poor instructors who barely fulfilled what was required of them if at all and handed off any student who was not a quick learner. It is easy to distinguish outstanding instructors who are dedicated, proficient, patient, possess empathy, enjoy teaching and go beyond what is required to produce divers they can be proud of in comparison to instructors who do nothing but the minimum required.

OTOH, doing the peak performance buoyancy dive first sets your students up for success by working out those kinks and allowing them to be more comfortable for all of the dives, taking in more and learning more from each skill set.

 

[bsee65]

Perhaps this offshoot on training practices will become another separate thread, but I must ask, why are you "done" if the diver does not perform the basic skills well? The diver was already certified by someone else, albeit poorly, and this is your opportunity to intervene and help that diver develop proficiency. You could help them rather than releasing that person from instruction yet again to fend for themselves in the open water they were certified for yet are ill prepared to dive.

I have seen dedicated instructors take students on extra dives without compensation because there was a willingness to learn and a desire by the instructor to produce proficient, self-reliant divers - and they managed to do just that. I have seen poor instructors who barely fulfilled what was required of them if at all and handed off any student who was not a quick learner. It is easy to distinguish outstanding instructors who are dedicated, proficient, patient, possess empathy, enjoy teaching and go beyond what is required to produce divers they can be proud of in comparison to instructors who do nothing but the minimum required.

OTOH, doing the peak performance buoyancy dive first sets your students up for success by working out those kinks and allowing them to be more comfortable for all of the dives, taking in more and learning more from each skill set.

I suspect that what "done" meant was that AOW is not the place for that sort of remedial education to occur and the student will have to drop out. There are other students in the class who are, hopefully, prepared and it wouldn't be fair to them to spend that much time on a single unprepared student who should either get independent instruction, repeat OW, or at a minimum, spend more time in the pool practicing basic skills. I just don't see where the time is in a two day course to fix it.

 

[bsee65]

You have a responsibility to do your job to the highest legal and moral standard possible short of sacrificing your life and health. Just my .02 (this statement in my original post is the thread that runs through the entire post)

If you have performed your job to the highest legal and moral standard YOU would not have GOT THEM in a jam or put someone in a position to be killed because of your actions. That sounds like criminal negligence to me! If I was responsible for putting someone's life at risk I would certainly consider it my responsibility to do whatever was necessary to correct the situation.

That is a totally different story from what I was trying to say and what I perceived this situation to be. This dive involved a certified OW diver with independent dive experience taking an AOW course. There has been absolutely no evidence presented here that makes me believe the instructor Got the student into a Jam or put them into a position to be killed because of (the instructor's) actions.
An instructor should do all they reasonably can to attain/maintain the highest skill level they can. The student has chosen to enter a hostile environment the instructor has not forced them into it. Few instructor get to "choose" their students. If the student chooses to do something that is not consistent with their training... the instructor should use their training to effect a rescue. If the instructor forfeits their own life to effect a rescue they have NOT followed their training. I have never heard of a training program that says two corpses are better than one!

I take my commitments to my family very seriously. If you want to lock onto the financial aspect... I can elaborate. I am not talking about the inconvenience of missing a week or two of work here and "financial comfort" I will not see my family homeless, in debt and bereft because of my actions. They have a right to expect me to protect them from physical, emotional and financial ruin... not to cause it.

I have seen the pain on family members faces while I zipped their loved ones into body bags! I will not put my loved ones through that because I throw my life away! I have seen the pain on family members faces coping with loved ones so badly injured they are living bodies with no minds with no hope of recovery... the family is tied to a body in a hospital bed. We do not live in a vacuum.. what we do impacts others and that must be considered.

I never said anything about suicide or throwing your life away. I said an instructor should be willing to assume the same level of risk that they help to create for a student in an attempted rescue. That's my definition of "highest moral standard". If I placed a charge in a position where they could die, I'd risk my life to get them out. If they were beyond saving, I wouldn't kill myself for nothing.

Your original post was general in nature, not apparently directed at this instance. If it was intended to be, I don't see where you wrote that. Saying that one should work to the "highest legal and moral standard" is a generalization. While there is one law, at least per jurisdiction, everyone has a different moral compass. Saying that one should do something based upon an undefined moral standard is, therefore, meaningless. You have to define your moral standard. The sentence I connected with seemed like you defining your moral standard relative to a diving rescue situation. That is, the overall welfare of your family comes before a student. Reading your words literally, I believe that you would rather let a student die than face a lawsuit or risk an injury that could impact the rest of your life and your ability to continue diving. Were you an instructor, would you want to explain your position to your students in those words?

Dear random student who wound up in my class, welcome to AOW. I will be with you in the water, but, if you get into trouble, I will do my best to save you as long as it isn't dangerous to me or likely to give you grounds for a lawsuit.​

I would agree that there's nothing in this particular instance that says the instructor was in any way responsible for placing the diver in a dangerous situation. We don't know what review of dive logs or medical forms took place prior to the dive. We don't know how this victim performed on the previous day's dives, if there was any skills checkout, or if she gave off any other signs that she might not be competent, in good health and of a mindset to do the deep dive. No issue have been reported and we certainly don't have video footage to review. If there were any such signs that anyone noticed, we'd have heard about it. The fact that none were reported doesn't, however, mean that there were none to be observed. We do know that this was a generally safe and appropriate environment for this dive. There was no report of unusual surface conditions or current that would have made it a more risky dive for a student, and I am confident that this would have been reported if it were the case.

Based upon what we have been told, the instructor was transported to the chamber facility with the victim. We don't know if she suffered any actual injuries or spent time in the chamber, but it certainly seems she took some level of risk in an attempt to assist her student. Would you expect to die if you had to ascend too rapidly from 65' as a pro with proper breathing on the way up? We're not talking about dropping weights, filling a BCD and shooting out of the water when you reach the surface, just a quick ascent. I got the impression that this ascent wasn't at "probably dead or seriously injured" speed, but that the victim held her breath on ascent and that's what did her in. We got no specific information about the ascent rate before or after the bolt, so we just don't know. I would think this information would be part of the incident report and a matter of public record by now, but it hasn't been shared here.

In general, an instructor doesn't get to pick students, but they always get to pick dive locations, make dive plans, and decide if a student is ready to go on a dive.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

I never said anything about suicide or throwing your life away. I said an instructor should be willing to assume the same level of risk that they help to create for a student in an attempted rescue. That's my definition of "highest moral standard". If I placed a charge in a position where they could die, I'd risk my life to get them out. If they were beyond saving, I wouldn't kill myself for nothing.

Umm.. I think that is exactly what I said in the Post you have just quoted

Your original post was general in nature, not apparently directed at this instance. If it was intended to be, I don't see where you wrote that.

I thought that posting in this particular thread and quoting someone who made a comment about this particular event made that pretty obvious

Saying that one should work to the "highest legal and moral standard" is a generalization. While there is one law, at least per jurisdiction, everyone has a different moral compass. Saying that one should do something based upon an undefined moral standard is, therefore, meaningless. You have to define your moral standard.

This is an interesting observation. Normally I am too verbose... ramble on too much trying to make my point clear. I was proud of myself for being so concise! :doh: I don't think an individual clearly "defining their moral standard" is relevant.. the judicial system has trouble doing that with more learned individuals than I

The sentence I connected with seemed like you defining your moral standard relative to a diving rescue situation.

oh.. did I define my moral standard after all

That is, the overall welfare of your family comes before a student. Reading your words literally, I believe that you would rather let a student die than face a lawsuit or risk an injury that could impact the rest of your life and your ability to continue diving.

Wow that is a huge assumption! I don't believe I even mentioned lawsuits or my ability to continue diving at all. I do have a right to protect my family and the quality of my life by making reasonable decisions about the risks I will take

Were you an instructor, would you want to explain your position to your students in those words?

Dear random student who wound up in my class, welcome to AOW. I will be with you in the water, but, if you get into trouble, I will do my best to save you as long as it isn't dangerous to me or likely to give you grounds for a lawsuit.​

Nope your words do not reflect my position at all. I do not instruct Scuba I am instructor in another industry. Every class I am required to explain the evacuation procedures, emergency exits etc. Part of that process involves giving the following direction. "Do not re-enter the building or this room for any reason or to get your personal belonging unless you are directed it is safe to do so by myself or one of the senior staff members" If one of the students attempted to re-enter before it was safe. I would advise them not to... I would try to stop them but if they fought me off and if re-entered the burning building I would not follow them!

I would agree that there's nothing in this particular instance that says the instructor was in any way responsible for placing the diver in a dangerous situation.

Which makes me wonder why my stating that the instructor had a right to abort the attempts at Rescue when she deemed it became too risky for her to continue them alarms you so much

We don't know what review of dive logs or medical forms took place prior to the dive. We don't know how this victim performed on the previous day's dives, if there was any skills checkout, or if she gave off any other signs that she might not be competent, in good health and of a mindset to do the deep dive. No issue have been reported and we certainly don't have video footage to review. If there were any such signs that anyone noticed, we'd have heard about it.

You certainly have more confidence in that than I

The fact that none were reported doesn't, however, mean that there were none to be observed. We do know that this was a generally safe and appropriate environment for this dive. There was no report of unusual surface conditions or current that would have made it a more risky dive for a student, and I am confident that this would have been reported if it were the case.

Based upon what we have been told, the instructor was transported to the chamber facility with the victim. We don't know if she suffered any actual injuries or spent time in the chamber, but it certainly seems she took some level of risk in an attempt to assist her student. Would you expect to die if you had to ascend too rapidly from 65' as a pro with proper breathing on the way up? We're not talking about dropping weights, filling a BCD and shooting out of the water when you reach the surface, just a quick ascent. I got the impression that this ascent wasn't at "probably dead or seriously injured" speed, but that the victim held her breath on ascent and that's what did her in. We got no specific information about the ascent rate before or after the bolt, so we just don't know.

I get the impression from the Instructor's actions that She believed otherwise. The instructor was there and from many reports is dedicated, experienced and respected in the dive community

I would think this information would be part of the incident report and a matter of public record by now, but it hasn't been shared here.

In general, an instructor doesn't get to pick students, but they always get to pick dive locations, make dive plans, and decide if a student is ready to go on a dive.

Yep.. which is why I said an instructor should do all they reasonably can to attain/maintain the highest skill level they can. You have a responsibility to do your job to the highest legal and moral standard possible short of sacrificing your life and health.

 

[openmindOW]

Perhaps this offshoot on training practices will become another separate thread, but I must ask, why are you "done" if the diver does not perform the basic skills well? The diver was already certified by someone else, albeit poorly, and this is your opportunity to intervene and help that diver develop proficiency.

Yes, I am more than happy to continue to train the person. That's one reason I favor AOW training; it's additional training, which is sometimes much needed.

But standards and my own moral compass require me to evaluate whether a diver is suitable for doing the Deep Dive, the Night Dive or the Wreck Dive. If, for example, the diver is not comfortable mask clearing, I am going to recommend additional training but I won't take him on the Deep Dive. It's too risky.

I have told certified divers before that their skills are not where they should be. I might recommend that they re-take OW or that they take the Peak Performance Buoyancy class.

 

[Ayisha]

I would never suggest that a less than proficient diver should be taken to deep water or a night dive or anywhere they can damage the reef/wreck. Absolutely the opposite. I understood that person is "done" within the scope of adventure dives until they show they are profient. They should never have been accepted into the AOW course anyway, and should have been pre-screened prior to working with a different instructor.

My point, however, is that I have seen outstanding instructors take divers that need help to do skills dives on their own time and without compensation, simply because they are dedicated to the sport. To simply shoo away a diver who wants to learn (as many non-dedicated instructors do) or pass them off to someone else seems to be a missing link in catching those students who fall through the cracks and are a potential danger to themselves or others. Mentoring is very important in the evolution of a diver. The result is not achieved by doing skills plopped on our knees or within a course that is often little more than a cash grab depending on the quality and skills of the instructor. This is obvious by the abundance of poor divers who are certified and yet lacking many skills.