Cave Ccr Student Dies At Blue Grotto Today

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we're triply redundant, with fischer shearwaters, a hud, and sa shearwaters.

i can also see the hud well enough to count blinks through closed eyelids.
 
Forgive me but is the HUD many are mentioning just lights that either go out or turn red if the PO2 is endangering you? Do you know if the po2 is too low or too high by the lights? Also would you even be able to see a NERD in a complete silt out, isn't it outside of the mask?
It depends to some extent on the unit and the electronics being used.

With the Shearwater HUD on your KISS Sidekicks, there are three LED positions, one for each sensor. Each position has red and green LEDs, and it's set to flash amber (both red and green) at a PP)2 of 1.0. For each .1 over 1.0 it flashes green once. So 2 green flashes confirms you are at a PPO2 of 1.2. Similarly, for each .1 under 1.0 it flashes one red, so 4 red flashes means a PPO2 of .6. Basically, a whole lot of red flashing is bad and a whole lot of green flashing is bad too. 2 green flashes is what you want if you're running a PPO2 of 1.2.

It's pretty simple and it flashes the sequence every 5 seconds, but that also means that with the tome it takes to flash a lot of flashes that if your PO2 is getting down to .2 it's going to be flashing red almost continuously (8 times every 5 seconds) at you, so it's hard to miss or ignore. Same with high PPO2s above 1.4 - lots of near continous green flashing.

The Shearwater NERD is also outside the mask but you can set it basically right up against the mask and it would still be visible in very low viz, and like the Shearwater Petrel display, PPO2s of .4 or less will flash red, and PPO2s above 1.6 will flash yellow, alerting you to an out of range condition, even if you couldn't read the actual number.

You mean other than they are an equipment solution to a skills problem??? :D :D :D I like redundancy and consistency. This way I get two PDCs giving me redundant deco information and am able to see what's happening with my cells. My SF2 is an eCCR using Shearwater's Dive Cann bus system. It has two controllers: the one in the head and the one on my right wrist. If the right PDC dies the one in the head takes over, but then I don't know what my PPO2 or deco status is. A HUD would tell me only what my PPO2 is. With the second Petrel II, I can see cell mV, PPO2 and my Deco Status. Also, I don't feel a need to have lights flashing in my face. I check my Shearwaters quite often and don't need the added reminder.

Given the side mount stuff we're doing and the greater potential, for low viz, I like the HUD. It immediately alerts me if a senor is dropping out, and it also immediately alerts me of high or Low PPO2 conditions even if I am not able to look at my computer at the moment, and in between the times I'll check the computer (every 3-4 minutes during stable depth and workload conditions - more frequently, on ascents and descents). That gives me warm fuzzies.

Since we both already had CCR enabled Predators, we opted to go with a fisher ported external monitoring Shearwater computer to monitor the PPO2 and serve as the primary deco, and then use our non fisher ported stand alone Shearwater computers for back up deco.

I wasn't sure how well it would work at first, since you establish high and low set points and then switch between them on the SA computer, while the EXT computer connected to the sensors bases the NDLs and deco schedule on the actual PPO2 in the loop.

For example, on the SA computer, you might use .7 as the low set point and 1.1 as the high set point. You establish a breathable loop and maintain the .7 at the surface and on initial decent, then once you get to 50 ft or so, switch the stand alone computer to the high set point and start bumping your PPO2 up on the unit to 1.1 as you descend so that you're at 1.1 at your target depth for the dive.

That means the SA computer is computing deco based on perfect maintenance of your set point, while the EXT computer is computing deco based on the set point(s) you've actually maintained on your unit.

In practice however, we've found that even with a manual CCR, we seem to do a very good job of maintaining the desired set point as there is rarely more than a minute or so difference in the deco schedules on the SA and EXT computers. And at any time in the dive you can compare the two computers and see how well you're doing at maintaining an accurate set point, based on the EXT information compared to the "ideal" situation presented by the SA computer.

The SA computer is actually a great tool because you can see if you're falling behind the curve so to speak if you've let the set point drift a little low and let it stay there. Also, the NDLs and deco on the fisher ported computer is based on the current PPO2 in the loop, and if it's momentarily .1 high or low due to a descent or ascent, it can make a significant difference in the projected NDL or deco schedule. However you can still look at your SA computer and see where you'll really be once the set point is back where it should be.

Consequently , I've discovered I like having the SA back up for deco, as it keeps me honest about how well I'm really maintaining a PPO2. I can also look at Marci's SA and EXT computers at any point in the dive and know how well she's been doing at maintain an accurate set point. That's important in terms of ensuring we both have similar deco obligations at the end of the dive. If for example the plan is to maintain 1.1 and one of the team mates maintains an average of .8 instead and incurs a boat load more deco, that will become obvious earlier in the dive when the differences can still be minimized, or at least is allows some discussion to occur post dive about the need to maintain a reasonably accurate set point - which surprisingly is a lot easier to do than it sounds on an mCCR.

------

But from a safety perspective, I think it matters less what you've got and more that you understand exactly how it all works and exactly what limitations and failure modes it has, so you can be vigilant about detecting a problem before it gets out of hand.
 
Were you able to read gauges???

Also not on a rebreather, but no sir. My buddy and I were in a small hold in a wreck and a complete silt-out occurred just due to the power of his kicks several feet above the bottom. I had just looked at my computer (and the exit) as the incredibly thick silt was rising rapidly, but then when I tried to look at the computer and even put it against my mask, I could not even see the computer, forget reading it. That was my old Sherwood Wisdom though, rather than my xDeep Black with OLED display that I have now, so I have no idea how that would fair. I couldn't see my light or my buddy. I put my light against myself and there was no difference. Couldn't see anything except silt. I found my buddy by touch ahead of me and the exit from the tiny room was known to us.

I am in no way advocating any of what I have written above, so please don't flame me, but am merely illustrating how quickly and insidiously silt can engulf you.
 
I have experience in both camps--trying to get information and trying to avoid giving it.

As someone who helps write accounts of cave incidents for the National Speleological Society, I have encountered extreme reluctance from individuals involved in incidents to reveal what they know. I have been convinced at times that individuals were flat out lying. I have also encountered incidents in which people sincerely regret having told what they know earlier, after their well intentioned words came back to bite them. As someone who has been involved in an incident, I can understand the reluctance to tell what you know for a wide variety of very good reasons.

The IUCRR is an organization that tries to effect cave rescues (more often effects body recoveries) and writes reports on the cause of the incidents in which they participate. They used to publish their reports on their website. They don't do that anymore, and they stopped doing it on advice of counsel. There are too many ways in which something they write in a report can end up becoming part of a lawsuit, even a lawsuit against them. Today their reports go only to the police, and if you want to read them, you will need to use the Freedom of Information act.

BTW, once a report is written by the police, there is nothing to stop someone from getting it through the Freedom of Information act and then publishing it themselves.

EDIT on 4/16: I have been contacted by a member of the IUCRR indicating that my summary of their policy is inaccurate. I am going to investigate further and hope to be able to correct it.

As a member of the IUCRR I thought I'd be able to help clarify what John posted. While only the director or assistant director may officially communicate with others outside the IUCRR on behalf of the organization, being a member of the team, I'm familiar with information that is available to the public listed on our website at www.IUCRR.org. The best explanation about why some reports are or are not posted can be found in the FAQ page (FAQ - IUCRR).

The following statement answers the frequently asked question: Why are some incident reports held back from being published on the IUCRR web site?

It's important to understand that the information collected during a rescue/recovery operation does not belong to the IUCRR. The IUCRR is always a subordinate to the local law enforcement organization (LEO) that is in charge of the crime scene. (Yes, every recovery venue is consider a crime scene until the LEO deems otherwise.) Consequently, there may be many reasons why the IUCRR does not (and often cannot) post the information to its web site. The most common reason it may not show up is simply that the information hasn't been released by the LEO. Also, there may be legal issues associated with a recovery, and we may be restrained by those proceedings from posting the information. Bottom line is, if we can post the information, we will post it.


It is also pertinent to know that we do not hold any information back, with one exception noted below. Once the recovery divers have written their report, law-enforcement has released that information, and the regional coordinator has checked it for accuracy and approved it, the information is posted on this web site. No information is withheld, with the exception of the victim's name (and, sometimes, the buddy(ies) name(s)). The purpose of posting is to provide information to cave divers and general public on what is known about an incident, in the hopes that the information will provide educational or safety value. Since the victim(s) name(s) nor the buddy's names are not relevant to the educational or safety value of the information, they are not published.
 
As a member of the IUCRR I thought I'd be able to help clarify what John posted. While only the director or assistant director may officially communicate with others outside the IUCRR on behalf of the organization, being a member of the team, I'm familiar with information that is available to the public listed on our website at www.IUCRR.org. The best explanation about why some reports are or are not posted can be found in the FAQ page (FAQ - IUCRR).

The following statement answers the frequently asked question: Why are some incident reports held back from being published on the IUCRR web site?

It's important to understand that the information collected during a rescue/recovery operation does not belong to the IUCRR. The IUCRR is always a subordinate to the local law enforcement organization (LEO) that is in charge of the crime scene. (Yes, every recovery venue is consider a crime scene until the LEO deems otherwise.) Consequently, there may be many reasons why the IUCRR does not (and often cannot) post the information to its web site. The most common reason it may not show up is simply that the information hasn't been released by the LEO. Also, there may be legal issues associated with a recovery, and we may be restrained by those proceedings from posting the information. Bottom line is, if we can post the information, we will post it.


It is also pertinent to know that we do not hold any information back, with one exception noted below. Once the recovery divers have written their report, law-enforcement has released that information, and the regional coordinator has checked it for accuracy and approved it, the information is posted on this web site. No information is withheld, with the exception of the victim's name (and, sometimes, the buddy(ies) name(s)). The purpose of posting is to provide information to cave divers and general public on what is known about an incident, in the hopes that the information will provide educational or safety value. Since the victim(s) name(s) nor the buddy's names are not relevant to the educational or safety value of the information, they are not published.

Trace, I too am a member of the IUCRR; I have made recoveries and written reports (Wayne's World -- Nov 2008). I do not agree that things are not "held back". There have been almost 10 incidents (that I know of) where reports were not released.

I am in no way, shape or form wanting to create a discussion regarding the IUCRR; my intent it to simply let people know that your response is misleading.
 
I made the post above in which I summarized my understanding of the reasons the IUCRR has largely stopped publishing reports. I was then contacted by an official from the IUCRR who told me I was completely wrong. I made the edit you see there stating that. I then found the thread in the Cave Divers Forum from which I had gathered my information, a thread in which Ken Hill of the IUCRR explained the reasons they had almost completely stopped publishing reports. I sent highlights to the person who had told me I was wrong. That person expressed surprise and said he would get back to me after checking things out.

At this point, I believe my original summary, done entirely from memory, was very accurate, and I stand by it. The only part I retract was when I said they were acting on advice of counsel. Although almost all of the reasons stated related to concerns about legal issues, at no time did Ken say they had received advice from legal counsel. I had just assumed if they were making those decisions for those reasons, they must have consulted with an attorney at some point. It is possible and even likely that they did, but Ken did not mention it in the thread.
 
In the 10 years from 1999-2008, the IUCRR posted 33 incident reports, and average of 3.3 a year. In the 7 complete years after that, it has published 3 indent reports, or roughly 0.4 per year. Two of those reports were posted in 2015, meaning that in the other 6 years, only 1 report was posted.

The discussion referenced in that last post was made in 2013.

As part of the discussion, Ken mentioned that DAN had stopped publishing fatality reports as well. He said, "In the face of lawsuits things change try tackling DAN, they stopped publications in 2009 around the same time the IUCRR did."
 
I really like...
No information is withheld, with the exception of the victim's name (and, sometimes, the buddy(ies) name(s)).
and I see it the same..

Since the victim(s) name(s) nor the buddy's names are not relevant to the educational or safety value of the information, they are not published.

Seems logic...
der a crime scene until the LEO deems otherwise.) Consequently, there may be many reasons why the IUCRR does not (and often cannot)


and may is the reason for..

There have been almost 10 incidents (that I know of) where reports were not released.
 
You mean other than they are an equipment solution to a skills problem??? :D :D :D I like redundancy and consistency. This way I get two PDCs giving me redundant deco information and am able to see what's happening with my cells. My SF2 is an eCCR using Shearwater's Dive Cann bus system. It has two controllers: the one in the head and the one on my right wrist. If the right PDC dies the one in the head takes over, but then I don't know what my PPO2 or deco status is. A HUD would tell me only what my PPO2 is. With the second Petrel II, I can see cell mV, PPO2 and my Deco Status. Also, I don't feel a need to have lights flashing in my face. I check my Shearwaters quite often and don't need the added reminder.
Why not use a nerd?
 

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