Cave diver death at Ginnie Springs

[Basking Ridge Diver]

I'm not a cave diver either, but whether you incur a deco stop obligation depends on time and depth and gas mix just like any other dive. Whether you're in a cave or not is irrelevant to that. I would imagine there are some caves, like maybe in Mexico, that are shallow and could be dived quite enjoyably without a deco obligation.

Where I was headed is Ginnie seems massive - so is it a waste of time to go to Ginnie for a 45 min dive or run time to avoid Deco - or is every large cave a Deco run... I was curious why these 2 "experienced" divers decided to go on a scooter run without additional gas... So in my mind is every cave dive a deco dive and you set your mind that way and these 2 folks were really going on a fun run that went awry or were they really just that overly confident in their abilities and hubris is what caused this mess?

 

[nimoh]

Where I was headed is Ginnie seems massive - so is it a waste of time to go to Ginnie for a 45 min dive or run time to avoid Deco - or is every large cave a Deco run... I was curious why these 2 "experienced" divers decided to go on a scooter run without additional gas... So in my mind is every cave dive a deco dive and you set your mind that way and these 2 folks were really going on a fun run that went awry or were they really just that overly confident in their abilities and hubris is what caused this mess?

Not a waste of time, I have done a few dives in Ginnie that were under an hour total run time and it is a beautiful cave with lots to see. It isn't necessary to go to the end of the line on every dive, you can turn around whenever you want to. I can't comment on what the divers were thinking or what their rationale was for their choices since I don't know.

When you think about it, all dives are deco dives which is why you have a maximum ascent rate. If you want to consider that recreational dives are not deco dives, then yes, you could go into Ginnie and poke around, maybe go into the catacombs or swim from the ear to the eye with no deco and still see lots of cool things. However, there really is no cavern zone there, so either you are diving in the river or in the cave, and appropriate certification is required for both.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Where I was headed is Ginnie seems massive - so is it a waste of time to go to Ginnie for a 45 min dive or run time to avoid Deco - or is every large cave a Deco run... I was curious why these 2 "experienced" divers decided to go on a scooter run without additional gas... So in my mind is every cave dive a deco dive and you set your mind that way and these 2 folks were really going on a fun run that went awry or were they really just that overly confident in their abilities and hubris is what caused this mess?

Okay, I see. Still, I suspect the answer is not all that different from the open-water version of the answer: for a given depth and gas, the more dive time you want, the more deco you will have. Whether it's "worth it" depends on what the diver thinks.

 

[Hetland]

Where I was headed is Ginnie seems massive - so is it a waste of time to go to Ginnie for a 45 min dive or run time to avoid Deco - or is every large cave a Deco run... I was curious why these 2 "experienced" divers decided to go on a scooter run without additional gas... So in my mind is every cave dive a deco dive and you set your mind that way and these 2 folks were really going on a fun run that went awry or were they really just that overly confident in their abilities and hubris is what caused this mess?

Okay, I see. Still, I suspect the answer is not all that different from the open-water version of the answer: for a given depth and gas, the more dive time you want, the more deco you will have. Whether it's "worth it" depends on what the diver thinks.

There's tons to see at Ginnie and other nearby systems that make it worth it for a 45 minute, no-decompression dive. First-time Ginnie cave divers with 32% are probably going to turn on thirds rather than decompression obligations because the flow can be significant (you're swimming against current). Some systems have an average depth that's shallower than Ginnie, and some with lesser flow.

I'd feel I got my weekend money's worth doing two no-deco Ginnie dives a day, then heading over to another system and doing two or three more before heading home. Lots of lodging options in that general area, lots of dive shops, and a few really good places to eat. You can also camp at Ginnie, but I would avoid Summer weekends unless you think you'd like an environment that's 33% Deliverance, 33% Mardi Gras, 33% Mad Max, and 1% Breaking Bad

 

[SandyRobinson]

Does every cave dive encounter a deco obligation? Are there short cave dives that are fun that don't need deco? I am not interested in learning to cave dive but I am interested in how it works. I would imagine maybe just training dives or checkouts? Otherwise if you are not going for deco are you wasting your time in a cave?

Depends on the cave. If you dive Ginnie, JB, or Cow on a 32% mix for less than an hour, you will probably have little if any deco obligation. If you dive at Wes Skiles Peacock Springs State Park, depths are usually shallower (30 to 60 with a few exceptions) and a deco obligation would be the exception rather than the rule - even for a 90 to 100 minute dive.

Also, your level of training dictates whether or not you can incur deco. The NACD allows no deco at Intro, limited deco for Apprentice, and deco at Cave(Full). NSSCDS is probably similar to this. I am not sure about GUE, TDI, IANTD, and NAUI. My instructor taught us Advanced Nitrox and Deco Procedures while we took Apprentice and Cave.

 

[Hetland]

Also, your level of training dictates whether or not you can incur deco. The NACD allows no deco at Intro, limited deco for Apprentice, and deco at Cave(Full). NSSCDS is probably similar to this. I am not sure about GUE, TDI, IANTD, and NAUI. My instructor taught us Advanced Nitrox and Deco Procedures while we took Apprentice and Cave.

NAUI, and TDI have two levels of cave instruction. Required decompression is not allowed at their first levels, and stages can't be used to extend penetration.

 

[nimoh]

Depends on the cave. If you dive Ginnie, JB, or Cow on a 32% mix for less than an hour, you will probably have little if any deco obligation. If you dive at Wes Skiles Peacock Springs State Park, depths are usually shallower (30 to 60 with a few exceptions) and a deco obligation would be the exception rather than the rule - even for a 90 to 100 minute dive.

Also, your level of training dictates whether or not you can incur deco. The NACD allows no deco at Intro, limited deco for Apprentice, and deco at Cave(Full). NSSCDS is probably similar to this. I am not sure about GUE, TDI, IANTD, and NAUI. My instructor taught us Advanced Nitrox and Deco Procedures while we took Apprentice and Cave.

GUE Cave 1 - no deco
GUE Cave 2 - deco

 

[Imbodie]

Does every cave dive encounter a deco obligation? Are there short cave dives that are fun that don't need deco? I am not interested in learning to cave dive but I am interested in how it works. I would imagine maybe just training dives or checkouts? Otherwise if you are not going for deco are you wasting your time in a cave?

I just finished Cave1 (NAUI) in October of last year and I am getting to do hour long dives, turned on 3rds not time(deco). I can not carry stages until next certification and have only had to turn one dive based on time (impending deco) and that was at Little River which was pretty much at 95' for majority of dive. Still always do 3 minute safety stop at end of every dive, but that isn't deco. I am quite happy with hour long dives at this point.

Tim

 

[cerich]

W I was curious why these 2 "experienced" divers decided to go on a scooter run without additional gas...

If I had to guess....

They have done this before, probably a few times. In the start they used stages but found on scooters they often didn't use that extra gas they were hauling around and it was a pain in the ... plus they never had a scooter failure and if they did, hitch a ride...they knew the cave well, nothing every really goes wrong... complacency.

 

[tomfcrist]

W I was curious why these 2 "experienced" divers decided to go on a scooter run without additional gas...

If I had to guess....

They have done this before, probably a few times. In the start they used stages but found on scooters they often didn't use that extra gas they were hauling around and it was a pain in the ... plus they never had a scooter failure and if they did, hitch a ride...they knew the cave well, nothing every really goes wrong... complacency.

I would have to agree with this. Experience does not make you infallible, and in some cases can work against you.