Certifications back to back: no way!

[chiara]

Sorry if I start a new thread, but I fear that writing under the one started by Michael will not make the point strong enough.

When training for my Dive Master certification, there were two guys who were doing OW: a few understandable problems in the beginning, but now good newbie divers.

The course finished in March.

They wanted to go diving during their holidays while in the South of France, where there are a few nice wrecks, so they asked the same instructor if they could take AOW, he accepted so that they could enjoy their trip to the fullest.

Were they ready?

I'm not sure, however I wasn't the teacher so mine is just an opinion.

Now they just came back home, and hearing three other people, who have almost 100 dives each want to take Rescue, they want to join in.

Guess what?

The instructor thinks this is fine :upset: , not only that but he wants me to assist and play the "victim".

No way!

I'm not going along with someone who started diving scarcely six months ago, has less than 50 dives under their belt, and am seriously considering joining another club.

Anyway, I'm not getting paid, so I have nor feel any moral obligation.

I am happy with PADI and I am considering going on to Instructor level (although some time into the future), but this is just plain "put another dollar in"!

 

[Welshman]

Chiara

I'd assess them by reference to their attitude to diving as well as the number of logged dives. I can think of divers with 100s of logged dives that I wouldn't want to play the "victim" with, so number of dives is not to my mind the only criterion.

Regards

 

[chiara]

I know you cannot judge just by the log-book, but remember, I have followed those two guys since their very first confined session in the pool.

The other three I know and I think they are ready for Rescue, but if the instructor is trying to save some €'s just by grouping people with hugely different levels of experience, I'm sorry, I'm not playing along, victim or supposed assistant.

I'm not talking money, I have a more than decent salary, but this goes against some of my beliefs, good or bad though they might be.

 

[Diversauras]

Originally posted by chiara
I know you cannot judge just by the log-book, but remember, I have followed those two guys since their very first confined session in the pool.

The other three I know and I think they are ready for Rescue, but if the instructor is trying to save some €'s just by grouping people with hugely different levels of experience, I'm sorry, I'm not playing along, victim or supposed assistant.

I'm not talking money, I have a more than decent salary, but this goes against some of my beliefs, good or bad though they might be.

Good for you, I whole heartedly agree with your feelings though I do not know the two novice divers. Some experience is required and without it Rescue (and sometimes AOW) is not as effective as it can be.

 

[CincyDiver]

If you plan on being a PADI instructor, you should be aware that PADI allows them to take the Rescue course. The requirements are to be an Advanced OW diver, 20 or more logged dives with experience in deep and underwater navigation and be 12 years of age or older. Technically, they meet the requirements since deep and navigation diving is part of AOW.

My opinion is that PADI is correct in these minimal requirements. Most of the skills learned in Rescue are surface or land skills. Looking through my instructor manual, I see only 3 out of 12 exercises that require under water skill, distressed diver under water, missing diver and surfacing the unconscious diver.

Rescue skills benefit everyone regardless of underwater skill. In PADI OW, you learn self rescue skills. Good for you, not good for your buddy. I would be hesitant to dive with someone who was not rescue trained regardless of their experience. Would you rather dive with someone who has 20 dives but knows how to surface an unconscious victim and give rescue breaths or someone who only knows how to remove a cramp. I prefer to dive with the person who could save my life.

 

[chiara]

I mean no insult here, but I can see where your attitude comes from.

You started diving in December last year and your are already a DM trainee?

That's a bit fast, and you are a good argument for those saying PADI shouldn't be in the business.

When I started my Rescue course, I did ALL the exercises in the sea, not in easy, confined, pool water.

I had a few extra dives than the demanded 20 and I still found it both exhausting and almost beyond my capacity.

There was no problem with the theory, but my instructor, whom I had never met and never saw again (I took the course on vacation) threatened me to write a referral and to send me home with no certification.

It was very hard work, and though I reckon in the end my c-card was well deserved, I reckon I was probably not ready.

By the way, PADI might allow for an AOW to take Rescue after ONLY 20 dives, but as an instructor you also have the right to say NO.

As mentioned before, if I do continue on to instructor level, it won't certainly be for the money.

 

[Diversauras]

Originally posted by CincyDiver


My opinion is that PADI is correct in these minimal requirements. Most of the skills learned in Rescue are surface or land skills. Looking through my instructor manual, I see only 3 out of 12 exercises that require under water skill, distressed diver under water, missing diver and surfacing the unconscious diver.

This is a partially correct statement. What needs to be added into the mix is the instructor's assesment of watermanship.

There are OW divers that are comfortable and can learn and retain all these skills, but there are also 100 dive AOW divers that are only marginally comfortable in the water and these people are too busy surviving in the water to really learn the rescue skills.

I am not saying they can't pass all the criterion for entry and completion, I am saying that when push comes to shove they won't have retained the skills needed. This could lead to a false sense of safety / security because by being rescue certified it is assumed they can perform the skills under stress in a deterioriting situation, my money says the probably won't be able to do it.

 

[MikeFerrara]

It is up to the instructor to asses requisit knowlege and skills. Readiness is not always measured in number of dives. I have a class in the pool now who, without ever having been in OW, have better buoyancy control and skills in general than 80% of the divers out there. When they get their card they will be better than most DM's and instructors I see.

How can learning to avoid problems recognise and deal with stress or assist another diver or brush up on first aid hurt a diver regardless of the number of dives they have?

AOW provides experience you do not have to have experience to take it. It is the name that should change. Rescue prepares you to take care of yourself and others. If it were up to me noone would dive without supervision until this level is reached.

In theory (I'm assuming a competent instructor) if you can meet the requirements of the class, you deserve the card. If your skill are insufficient you will not meet the requirements. So, to a large extent we are using ability to gauge readiness not time or number of dives.

Most divers only have a couple of dives anyway - If you have 100 dives under the same conditions have you done 100 dives or one dive 100 times? Most divers only do canned dives that were planned by someone else. If they have done this hundreds of times over many years they have very little meaningful experience. That is why time and number of dives is such a poor way to judge ability.

 

[CincyDiver]

Originally posted by chiara
I mean no insult here, but I can see where your attitude comes from.

You started diving in December last year and your are already a DM trainee?

That's a bit fast, and you are a good argument for those saying PADI shouldn't be in the business.

When I started my Rescue course, I did ALL the exercises in the sea, not in easy, confined, pool water.

I had a few extra dives than the demanded 20 and I still found it both exhausting and almost beyond my capacity.

There was no problem with the theory, but my instructor, whom I had never met and never saw again (I took the course on vacation) threatened me to write a referral and to send me home with no certification.

It was very hard work, and though I reckon in the end my c-card was well deserved, I reckon I was probably not ready.

By the way, PADI might allow for an AOW to take Rescue after ONLY 20 dives, but as an instructor you also have the right to say NO.

As mentioned before, if I do continue on to instructor level, it won't certainly be for the money.

No offense taken. You are basing your assumptions off of very little information about me so it's ok.

I admit I fast tracked it up to getting into Divemaster but I'm taking it nice and slow now. I am no rush to actually be a divemaster. I just love helping out and hanging around with divers.

You're absolutely right that an intructor should gauge a diver's ability and make a recommendation on whether or not they should move on to the next level. However, number of dives alone is no indicator. My instructor judged my skills and capability level and allowed me to take rescue. I have dove almost every weekend since first getting my certification. I have been bitten by the SCUBA bug and I love it. I have always had an affinity for water sports and now SCUBA is my life. I was more than prepared to take the Rescue class.

You imply that I performed all of my rescue skills in a pool. That's a jab and not very nice. I spent several weeks doing classroom and pool work before doing my rescue dives in a low visibility cold water quarry. It was not a vacation for me. I too almost found it beyond my capacity. As it should be, our instructor was hard on us. We wore 7mil wet suits and took our gear off between scenarios. And then we had to walk uphill, in the snow just to get to the quarry. Just kidding. We were however, judged on how quickly we could gear up and get in the water.

You're comment about instructing for money gave me a chuckle. I have a lot of instructor friends and they do it because they love it. If anybody chooses instructing as a means to make money, they are in for a rude awakening. Maybe an instructor in a resort could make a decent buck, but not here in Ohio. It's all for love of the sport.

 

[chiara]

I really meant no insult, I was just trying to present how MY Rescue was done.

PADI allows all exercises but the last to be taken in a pool, and I know many people who had this privilege.

Instructing means little or no money at all, but not everyone understands this!