Certifications back to back: no way!

[Dea]

...I took the course in warm, clear waters around Sharm el Sheikh. They want to take the course in dark, cold, murky waters in and around Belgium.

Well, good for them! if they can manage it under bad conditions than it is a plus. Do you think it would be better for practical purposes if they had chosen an easier way, as you did?

More demanding conditions mean less chance of them passing if they are not ready.

Everyone should be encouraged to take Rescue Diver course, but the certification should not be given when they are very proficient at all the skills. And if one chooses to do it under the most ideal conditions possible than he/she misunderstands the purpose of that training.

Also, # of loged dives is not an indicator. Some people simply have personalities that make them good divers fast. Those who are not prone to panic, deal with situations rationally, comfortable in water... etc.

Also, as a Northeast diver who has to deal with bad wiz, constant cold, bad weather, I feel that I am at a higher skill level than a person with a log book twice as long who has only dived in warm vacation resorts.
And I don't think you should discourage anyone from learning to dive in challenging conditions.

 

[SubMariner]

If the PADI (or NAUI) standard minimum was written around the average 20 dive US diver, Florida beaches for example, and the class was being given in Maine or in the English Channel, then someone who has not already dived in 3+ kt current and experienced 3+ meters of tidal height change, and maybe even throw in dry suit training, is probably not qualified to take the course.

It is a gross generalization and somewhat biased to characterize US diving as being "20 dives in Florida". I am really getting a bit peeved about the bigoted UK mentality when it comes to North American divers. Guess what? Not ALL North Amercians are in the US, and not ALL diving is done in Florida!

I have no knowledge of NAUI, but PADI HQ is located on the West Coast of North America. Cold, sometimes dark coastal waters with limited vis, currents, etc. But with argueably some of the best diving in the world. IOW, they are NOT operating in a vaccuum when it comes to gearing a course towards local conditions!

Frankly, ALL diving courses, REGARDLESS OF AGENCY AFFILIATION are geared towards "local conditions" merely by virtue of where they are conducted. It is obvious that if I learn to dive in the Great Lakes of North America or the coast of UK or Sweden my dive experience and skill sets will be somewhat different than someone who learned to dive in Bali or The Bahamas.

IOW, it makes no difference whether that course was NAUI, PADI, BSAC, SSI or any other letters of the alphabet. It's WHERE one learns to dive that is the key, not which letters are on the C-card.

~SubMariner~

 

[DivePartner1]

I agree with Chiara.

I took a rescue class with two divers who got there OW and minimum number of dives in the previous month and they weren't ready. Is was there first dive experience out of the Caribbean, in a murky quarry. One hadn't mastered enough skills to navigate with his gear and consistently drowned the victim (me, usually). He lost buddy contact under water if I wasn't bird-dogging him, which meant that my baby sitting him interferred with my rescues. The other got hypothermic through not understanding the environment and had to be 'rescued' herself. That should have been a failure.

It's great that new divers are responsible enough to consider enhancing skills, but the basic skills should be mastered first. This becomes more apparent once you've experienced more than a few months of dives.

Again, why are LDS's pushing OW's through like there is no tomorrow? Just let'em get dives in, in appropriate circumstances, until they're ready.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Originally posted by DivePartner1
Again, why are LDS's pushing OW's through like there is no tomorrow? Just let'em get dives in, in appropriate circumstances, until they're ready.

Most of you have read enough of my posts to know my opinions on dive training but the answer to your question is MONEY.

The current structure of the industry dictates pushing through large numbers of students to sell enough gear to keep your dealorships and stay in business. It's like politics, one may start with good intentions but in the end must compromise ideals just to be allowed to play the game.

 

[WreckWriter]

Well, like Mike says, it's a numbers game to make a living. training is just a vehicle for equipment sales (as are boat trips, group trips, etc).

As for taking AOW soon after OW, no biggie. AOW is an "experience" class, you get to experience the various types of dives under instructor supervision. It's a give-away, almost impossible to screw it up.

Rescue, on the other hand, is different. If properly taught recue will be the most difficult class in recreational diving, primarily in a physical sense. If a student is not very tired at the end of a day of rescue training then it's not being taught properly.

It's also the first course you can actually fail. People do fail, mostly they drop out from not being fit enough to handle the exercises. Rescue is, and should be, hard.

Experience comes into play very much, primarily in the realm of comfort level. If you aren't comfortable with, and familiar with, a variety of equipment, you'll have trouble. If you aren't comfortable in a variety of environmental conditions, you'll have trouble (this would not apply for some locations where I guess it would all be done in a lake or quarry). I've always believed rescue exercises should take place in moderately rough seas with at least a moderate current as that where real rescues take place.

Rescue with less than 50 dives? Maybe you'll make it, maybe not.

Tom

 

[Diversauras]

I meant no insult to US divers, or PADI or NAUI either. I meant and still mean that all divers are not trained equally.

If you dive in Florida and do 500 beach and boat dives in relatively calm clear warm water, it is possible that when you dive off the north coast of Europe where tides are huge and currents swift and water cold and not as clear as Florida, that you will experience anxiety and stress and be in more danger than when in your comfort zone back home.

On the other hand if you learn to dive in Northern Europe and have 500 dry suit dives in cold swift water and you vacation in Florida it will not likely be traumatic.

Taking one each of these divers in a rescue class in Florida, both will probably do well, but offer the same two the class in the cold swift English channel then the they are not both qualified to take the course. It may not take long for the Florida diver to come up to speed but right out of the box they aren't equal.

I haven't dived the west coast but imagine that it creates hardy divers because of the conditions.

Then to top it all off, because of what Mike F. said, there are a lot of people certified, some are less capable than others.

I don't want to point fingers but I worked for years as a safety diver / DM off North Carolina. The boats take divers to wrecks and a lot of AOW card holders have a lot of problems doing a weekend or a weeks worth of back to back 100+ foot dives in choppy seas 30 miles offshore. Those that want to learn do and become good divers, but some never do because they haven't got a clue.

This leads me into the BS-AC comment. I was in a club for a year a while back. The commitment made by BS-AC members just to get to the one and two star level is greater tha most DMs in the US. The reason is because their conditions are so sevear, but they developed a training system that works for them. Their OW (3rd class) requires 10 dives at at least 5 different sites on 5 different dates, under at least 5 different conditions (from a list)plus a real open water rescue. Then their AOW (2nd class) requires an additional 20 dives at 10 sites on 10 dates and under 5 conditions different that OW.

When I teach I teach NAUI and I use the standards a minimums. I have required many students to do and redo what others would pass. I think I owe my students at least this much, and I have lost only one of my students in a diving accident, he was a very senior cave instructor and it was many years after I taught him OW and AOW.

I do agree that agency is unimportant and that it is all geared toward local conditions.

 

[art.chick]

It's darn scary! Even if the students are rock-solid competent, you are at risk & can get water up your nose, you teeth loosened by having your reg yanked out, get tumbled all over in the surf, etc, etc. Now imagine new divers who are still unsure of how to keep themselves safe trying to whisk you out of the ocean!

No, it "doesn't hurt" to learn life-saving skills, but I don't blame this woman for wanting to minimize getting beat up while newbies feel their way in the dark thru some more new skills. In consideration for the volunteer for victimhood, I would like to see instructors ask for qualifications more than what have been described.

I once had a Rescue student freak out while towing me ("The Victim") and use me as a floatation device while he had a conversation with the instructor. I could not breathe, & his drama was distracting enough that the instructor did notice my plight for what seemed an eternity. So defend an agency's rights, defend a student's rights, but try to think of the victim's safety at some point in the process.

 

[SubMariner]

I once had a Rescue student freak out while towing me ("The Victim") and use me as a floatation device while he had a conversation with the instructor. I could not breathe, & his drama was distracting enough that the instructor did notice my plight for what seemed an eternity. So defend an agency's rights, defend a student's rights, but try to think of the victim's safety at some point in the process

Not to point fingers or lay blame, but I cannot understand why you were unable to extricate yourself from a situation where you were supposed to have superior knowledge and experience.

Can you supply more info about the scenario in which you were involved?

~SubMariner~

 

[art.chick]

Submariner,
Forgot to mention that I was a rescue student myself playing victim when the big 350 lb guy freaked out on me. We were taking turns "rescuing" each other. My eyes were closed during the tow to keep water out from his vigorous kick. He very suddenly lost it & lept on board. (I guess his snorkel was leaking.)

I don't necessarily believe that even a rescue-certified diver can always extricate themselves from a situation even with a simulated emergency. That is why the Rescue textbooks warn us about using judgement before choosing to get involved. I would be cautious about letting a victim get close while they were panicking today, but every rescue is a risk on our own lives. What if the unconscious person we are towing suddenly comes to & climbs on us while we are locked in the do-si-do position? A strong & alert person could go underwater & kick them off, but the surprise element may cost us the quick reaction to save our own lives.

Rescue classes prepare us with the tools to build our lifesaving abilities, but let's be honest about the unpredictability or real-life emergencies: training is sometimes no match for the adrenaline of fear, especially when the reason the victim is freaking is that the conditions of the ocean have become very rough & scary.

 

[cabrerad]

ScubyDoo makes a good point in this thread. Taking an advanced diver course is actually a very good idea soon after taking the openwater course. This allows the new diver to have several additional dives under the supervision of an instructor. The instructor in an AOW course can then further assist in helping the new diver increase their skill set (including diving skills, dive planning, and experiencing different types of dives) and confidence. While teaching in the BVI I routinely taught divers OW through AOW. When I made dives with these student at popular dive sites frequented by customers of LDS (some had many more dives logged than my students) the difference between some of them was like night and day. My students all had mastered neutral buoyancy, while some of the divers taking charters bobbed all over the place, bicycle kicked, hit bottom etc. So what am I saying? Taking an additional class allows a student to refine their skills, and avoid starting bad habits (bicycle kicking, hitting the bottom, dangling equipment etc. under the supervision of an instructor.

David C.
PADI MSDT 150522