Certifications back to back: no way!

[CincyDiver]

I did not take it as an insult at all. I am a very fact based logical person. I apologize if my reply seemed harsh. I try to add humour to my posts so I don't sound so serious but it doesn't always work. You are absolutely correct though. As an instructor, you have to gauge your students ability. Since you didn't feel they were ready, they probably weren't. I just wanted to point out what PADI standards say.

 

[MikeFerrara]

chiara,
You are incorrect. PADI standards state that all exercises be conducted in an OW environment representative of local conditions. The instructor can, at their discretion add confined water sessions but this is in addition too not instead of.

Mike

 

[DivePartner1]

I don't think that the taking AOW back to back should be a problem. It's really something of an extension of OW and teaches necessary skills such as bouyancy. I did, and it greatly improved my skills and enjoyment.

But I do have concerns about the rocket-speed at which many LDS's seem to be pushing strudents from OW to DM.

When I took my rescue course, I was the only one other than the instructor who had been diving more than several months, and the only one with a multiple of many times the minimum number of dives required (and under varied environments).

All others were on a fast track to "DM" and would soon take the course. Although they didn't have the dives for DM, they would jam in as many as possible and get the card months after passing the course.

An obvious shortcoming at the Rescue class was not so much the limited number of dives but the limited variety of experience. Two dozen dives off Cozamel don't serve as well as the same number in differenct environents over more time. For example, one student got hypothermia because she didn't think through wearing a 3 mil suiit in a quarry. At a rescue course you should know better. She sat out most of a day, got wet for the minimal particiaption on day 2 and still passed.

Training is great and we all love diving, but what's the rush? Egging on students onto a professional track from OW just strikes me as unscrupulous, and I see a lot of LDS's doing this. After the initial enthusiasm, how do they know they are really so obsessed, particualary if they haven't yet had their first ****ty or challenging dive.

 

[Padipro]

Originally posted by chiara
I had a few extra dives than the demanded 20 and I still found it both exhausting and almost beyond my capacity.

It was very hard work, and though I reckon in the end my c-card was well deserved, I reckon I was probably not ready.

Chiara,

The Rescue Diver Course is ment to be difficult and demanding. Do you really think that pulling a paniced or unconscious diver out of the water while either calming them down or preforming CPR is going to be easy? I've told everyone in every Rescue class I've either taught or assisted with that this will be the most diffucult class they will ever take both physically and mentally. I've also told them that I was perpously going to make it difficult because being able assist yourself or another diver in an emergency is one of the most important skills they will ever learn as a diver and that cirtification as a Rescue Diver means that you can handle the situtation not that you paid me for the "C" card. If they couldn't pass the course they wern't getting the card and that was that. I would always tell them that I would help them with suggestions and that if they didn't pass the course the first time they were always welcome to attend the next class, for free, and attempt it again. I've perpously paired a 110 pound female rescuer with a 250 pound male victum in the paniced diver scenario just to give them an idea of what it might be like and to give them the confidence that if they could handle a situation like that they could handle anything. It's was hard, it was difficult and it was demanding but you know what? She did it, and when it was all said and done she thanked me for showing her that she was capeable of doing something she didn't think she could do.

Becoming a Rescue Diver means that you're traind, confident, and can handle the situation. If you tell someone that you are Rescue cirtified that gives them a certain confidence in you that you can handle a bad situation if it arises. It's doesn't mean that you've logged 100's of dives or have a vast experience level. Every person taking the Rescue Diver class, just as with the Openwater class, must meet the preformance requirements in order to pass and it's your job as an assistant to help the Instructor determine wather or not someone has preformed well enough to be certified as a Rescue Diver.

Dive Safe

Scott

 

[ScubyDoo]

I received my OW in February of this year, and then my AOW in April. I see the AOW as an extension of my OW training. I certainly dont think Im an advanced diver. I do have a bit more training than others who have not taken thier AOW. The skills I was taught in AOW were extremely helpful in giving me extra experiences I otherwise would never have been exposed to. These are experiences which I can put to use in my regular diving activities. One of the dive instructors who teaches Rescue made the comment "Rescues Next?" to me, and I replied "after I get some more dives under my belt". I do want to take rescue and eventually Divemaster. For now though I feel as if I should log plenty of dives at my current level, and worry about advancing later. Im glad I went ahead and took my AOW though. If the need arises for a night dive, a deep dive, a search & recovery, or underwater nav. arises......I will have the training and (just as important)....the confidence to perform them properly.

 

[Welshman]

I'm partway through my rescue diver course and am still relatively inexperienced. However, I wasn't pushed into doing it by anyone. It was my choice based on my desire to improve my diving skills and not as a means of progressing to Divemaster and beyond.

I could have waited till I had more dives under my belt but I'm not sure that more dives would necessarily make me a better safer diver. My belief is that taking the course now will materially improve my skills. I acknowledge that they will not be much use unless I practice them regularly which I am committed to doing.

I therefore agree with Mike F's views that it doesn't hurt anyone to learn new skills. By way of analogy I also ride a motorbike and have done so for the last 6 years. I've recently changed to a more powerful bike. On Tuesday and Wednesday this week I rode for two days with an advanced instructor. I'd thought I was a pretty good rider but he taught me so much. I only wished I'd taken this advanced training shortly after I passed my test (the OW equivalent) rather than wait 6 years.

In summary i think that if you have the right attitude then even if you are not that experienced go ahead and take the rescue diver course. it won't do you any harm.

Regards

 

[MikeS]

chiara,

It sounds to me like you have a chip on your shoulder; you think that since it took you a certain amount of time and dives to get to where your at, everyone should have to wait that long. I was certified OW in April and finished Rescue in July. I talked with the instructor and in his opinion I was ready and more importantly in my opinion I was ready.

Originally posted by chiara
By the way, PADI might allow for an AOW to take Rescue after ONLY 20 dives, but as an instructor you also have the right to say NO.

I disagree. If you are going to be PADI instructor you are obliged to follow the rules. You have an obligation to give anyone that meets the requirements a fair chance at taking the course. If they don’t meet the requirements to pass the course then they shouldn’t be certified.

Based on your attitude of prejudging students before they even get training or a chance to demonstrate what they've learned, I think the class is better off without you.

Mike

 

[Diversauras]

I will have to side with Chira on this, I think what is really being addressed is competence.

I am not an active instructor just now but have taught for 20 years, NAUI not PADI, and IMHO an instructor has the OBLIGATION to ensure that those taking the class are qualified to do so. In some cases the minimum requirements may not be enough. The BSAC is a follower of this philosiphy and it works well. If the PADI (or NAUI) standard minimum was written around the average 20 dive US diver, Florida beaches for example, and the class was being given in Maine or in the English Channel, then someone who has not already dived in 3+ kt current and experienced 3+ meters of tidal height change, and maybe even throw in dry suit training, is probably not qualified to take the course.

The agencies do not set "cast in stone" standards, there is a great deal of discression left to the instructor, they are the ones at risk and bear the responsibity for the safety of the the class.

 

[chiara]

MikeS,

I think I'm being misinterpreted.

As I stated in the very first post which started the thread, I've known the two people I'm opposed to seeing so soon in the Rescue course ever since the first pool session in December 2001.

They are good people, good friends and good divers for slightly more than beginners, but in my view they are not ready; I decided to give an account of my own course, because I see in them some of the things I know were there back in October 2000 when I took the course in warm, clear waters around Sharm el Sheikh.

They want to take the course in dark, cold, murky waters in and around Belgium.

I'm not saying that if and when I become an instructor I'll say NO just out of cussedness, that would be breaking the rules, I know you have the right to say NO if you feel the person is not ready.

Make a dive with them, see them in the pool, talk with them, ask them a few basic questions and then make an informed decision.

There is no place in the Instructors' Manual that says you have to bring through every single person who takes the OW, they teach you to do your best for your students to succeed, there is a huge difference.

Why should it be any different at a higher level?

 

[MikeS]

Chiara,

It sounds like you’re penalizing the divers because you know them. If they had just walked in off the street would you treat them the same way?

I think that to be fair the prerequisites for the course should be objective rather than subjective. According to the PADI web page http://www.padi.com/courses/rec/rescue.asp the only prerequisites for the Rescue Course are AOW and that you be 15 years old. These are objective requirements, you either meet them or you don’t. It seems as though you’ve added a very subjective requirement of being “ready” along with some additional requirements; some amount of time longer than six months plus some number of dives grater than 20.

I strongly agree that not all students should pass all courses. They do deserve a chance to take the course if they meet the prerequisites as defined by PADI. They should be judged on their performance in the class not some preconceived notion of their “readiness.”

Scott said it much better than I, “Becoming a Rescue Diver means that you're traind, confident, and can handle the situation. If you tell someone that you are Rescue cirtified that gives them a certain confidence in you that you can handle a bad situation if it arises. It's doesn't mean that you've logged 100's of dives or have a vast experience level. Every person taking the Rescue Diver class, just as with the Openwater class, must meet the preformance requirements in order to pass and it's your job as an assistant to help the Instructor determine wather or not someone has preformed well enough to be certified as a Rescue Diver.”

Mike