Comfybite and DIR?

[MXGratefulDiver]

If they're convulsing, you can't be sure that they're not breathing. And unless you've done a complete examination on them, I for one would want to err on the side of "they might take a breath, so I'll give 'em gas" rather than on taking a chance that they might suck in a lung full of seawater.

I was taught that a convulsing diver won't be breathing, because the convulsion causes their throat to constrict and their tongue to block their airway. As the oxygen in their system metabolizes, it eventually drops to the point where the convulsing will stop ... at which time the reflex response will cause the diver to gasp. If a reg isn't in their mouth, they will aspirate and drown.

Therefore you want to put a reg in their mouth to try to prevent that from happening.

To respond to a previous comment ...

I was also trained by NAUI, and yes they do take a different approach. This is due to two things ... first, at the level this is taught, they are talking to a recreational diver. The approach will be decidedly different when responding to an unconscious diver in a recreational situation than it will be when responding to a toxing diver in a potential overhead environment ... at least if the intent is rescue and not recovery.

Second, when NAUI created their standards, Nitrox use wasn't nearly as prevalent as it is today ... and therefore dealing with toxing divers wasn't really a common concern. This has changed radically over the past 3-4 years as Nitrox use has skyrocketed among recreational divers, and I have no doubt that those standards will be updated to take a toxing situation into account. In this respect, what GUE teaches is just a bit ahead of the curve for the recreational diver.

Truth to tell, until it came up in this thread I hadn't really thought through the potential difficulties of getting a reg into the mouth of a toxing diver ... it wasn't discussed in any class I've taken to date. But the rationale makes sense ... and it will cause me to consider replacing the mouthpieces on my own regs.

Perhaps it's not as silly a topic as I initially thought it to be ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Derek S]

Maybe its just me. I find that my standard Scubapro mouthpieces are more than comfortable enough, and even if I weren't an aspiring DIR diver I wouldn't be putting on mouthpieces that aren't "universal".

Forget the whole toxing diver part. Sure it is a possible concern, but even from a Joe "once a year tropical trip recreational diver" Six-pack point of view it doesn't make sense.

I want to know that if the proverbial you know what hits the fan, I can look to one of my buddies/team members and know that their reg is going to fit in my mouth and provide me with air with as minimal fuss as possible. And of course I want them to know the same true when it comes to my regs as well.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Maybe its just me. I find that my standard Scubapro mouthpieces are more than comfortable enough, and even if I weren't an aspiring DIR diver I wouldn't be putting on mouthpieces that aren't "universal".

Forget the whole toxing diver part. Sure it is a possible concern, but even from a Joe "once a year tropical trip recreational diver" Six-pack point of view it doesn't make sense.

I want to know that if the proverbial you know what hits the fan, I can look to one of my buddies/team members and know that their reg is going to fit in my mouth and provide me with air with as minimal fuss as possible. And of course I want them to know the same true when it comes to my regs as well.

Um ... the ComfoBite mouthpiece IS a "universal" piece of gear ... they come standard on every Apeks and Aqualung regulator, which is why I have them on my regs.

There is no problem with them fitting your mouth with minimal fuss ... unless your teeth happen to be clenched together because you're toxing ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Derek S]

Um ... the ComfoBite mouthpiece IS a "universal" piece of gear ... they come standard on every Apeks and Aqualung regulator, which is why I have them on my regs.

There is no problem with them fitting your mouth with minimal fuss ... unless your teeth happen to be clenched together because you're toxing ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob,

That'll learn' me for not reading the whole thread. I was thinking of a SeaCure.

Quite applicable here - I shall open mouth and insert foot. <sheepish grin>

 

[Jason B]

I was taught that a convulsing diver won't be breathing, because the convulsion causes their throat to constrict and their tongue to block their airway. As the oxygen in their system metabolizes, it eventually drops to the point where the convulsing will stop ... at which time the reflex response will cause the diver to gasp. If a reg isn't in their mouth, they will aspirate and drown.

Therefore you want to put a reg in their mouth to try to prevent that from happening.

Here's what I don't get. If the convulsing diver does as you indicate and suddenly gasps for air, and you have done as you said and put the reg in his mouth, won't he still get a lung full of water as the reg has not been purged. You can't purge it for him because if he is unconscious you'll still blow water down his pipes. What about the fact that he probably has a mouth full of water already before you even put the reg up to his mouth. Will the unconscious diver be able to cough up this water? I just don't know about this. Sure, it sounds good on paper, but the reality of it is that there are too many unforeseen issues (or so it seems to me at this point).
Mind you I'm not trying to fight the issue, but I'm not willing to press the "I believe" button yet either.

Jason

 

[lamont]

Here's what I don't get. If the convulsing diver does as you indicate and suddenly gasps for air, and you have done as you said and put the reg in his mouth, won't he still get a lung full of water as the reg has not been purged. You can't purge it for him because if he is unconscious you'll still blow water down his pipes. What about the fact that he probably has a mouth full of water already before you even put the reg up to his mouth. Will the unconscious diver be able to cough up this water? I just don't know about this. Sure, it sounds good on paper, but the reality of it is that there are too many unforeseen issues (or so it seems to me at this point).
Mind you I'm not trying to fight the issue, but I'm not willing to press the "I believe" button yet either.

Jason

Thats why you lightly purge the reg after putting it in their mouth. The air coming out of the reg should displace water out of the mouth (throat is closed, so the water will need to come out the mouth rather than being force into the lungs). They may still aspirate water after the convulsions stop, but hopefully its manageable. If you do it too forcefully of course you may force water into their stomach or lungs, or cause barotrauma, so you need a light touch on the purge button.

Of course in this situation you've got to realize that the person is going to die if you don't try *something* and there's still a good chance they're dead no matter what you do... I think this procedure has actually worked once (twice?) in the field though...

 

[Jason B]

Of course in this situation you've got to realize that the person is going to die if you don't try *something* and there's still a good chance they're dead no matter what you do... I think this procedure has actually worked once (twice?) in the field though...

Good point. Thanks.

Jason

 

[Albion]

Just wanted to comment on this a bit ... as I took the remark differently than you did. ... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob
Your point is noted, and as I previously mentioned, I have learnt (or learned) some interesting and useful data here, toxing diver procedures being one of them, it is an issue which is constantly evolving. However I also learnt some things here which were subsequently debunked by instructors and by practical experience, and have learnt to check the posters profiles before accpeting it as gospel.

Getting out and diving more won't really help unless, on one of those dives, you end up bringing a toxing diver to the surface. You really have to rely on what you learn by reading, and what conclusions you come to by thinking through the scenario based on what you read. Practice, in this case, is limited (for most of us) to what we can simulate in a Rescue class.

Not totally true, go diving more and you will meet more divers, I have met people with actual experience of toxing divers, having time to talk with them and find out what actually happened is just as beneficial. SO I don’t see why I should be ridiculed for getting actual practical experience, especially when the one doing the ridiculing has so little experience himself (not you Bob), ciao :10:

Exactly. If they're toxing, you want to get a different gas into their system. Allowing them to breathe their own gas will only result in more toxing.

So you would take a working Reg out of a toxing divers mouth!!!!!!!!, Not knowing if you could get another one back in before they choke down a mouthful cmon. Toxing will not kill you, but drowning will! :11: (see your second post which contradicts the first?)

And you're doing it very well trimmed as we can see in your profile pic (If it's you ).

Yes that is me, and is this really relavent to the thread? BTW whilst a potentially dangerous hobby, diving should still be fun, and this is me posing for a photo for FUN, not actually swimming around. ALSO you might want to review your own profile photo, it shows a snap bolt tied with cave line to your primary second stage maybe you should think about a breakaway connection there! Or possibly like mine, it is an old photo which you happen to like!

 

[mweitz]

Not totally true, go diving more and you will meet more divers, I have met people with actual experience of toxing divers, having time to talk with them and find out what actually happened is just as beneficial. SO I don’t see why I should be ridiculed for getting actual practical experience, especially when the one doing the ridiculing has so little experience himself (not you Bob), ciao :10:

This is exactly the same as reading it, but you have to work harder to get the information. It isn't YOUR actual practical experience that you are drawing on, but that was your implication. You also just admitted that you do read to get some information, so you're really just trolling here? Now, you make an outlandish statement (admittedly so), someone called you on it, and you trashed them in public, nice. Though he may not have a zillion dives, I’ve found every single one of his posts to be accurate from what I can tell (I don’t have much diving experience either, quick, look at my profile and decide whether you can continue to read this)

So you would take a working Reg out of a toxing divers mouth!!!!!!!!, Not knowing if you could get another one back in before they choke down a mouthful cmon. Toxing will not kill you, but drowning will! :11: (see your second post which contradicts the first?)

I believe that the general thought process here is that if someone is toxing or unconscious their reg is out of their mouth. Isn’t that why they die?

Remember, another reason for switching to your primary reg is in case they have a nasty in their tank, like from an internal tank fire that was undetected during the fill. With that said, I’m pretty confident that you couldn’t get a reg out of a toxing divers mouth during the tox if they didn’t spit it out, but you would want to get them on your gas as soon as you could, in the safest manner you can. Common sense would always dictate what you would do, but these types of conversations, along with training scenarios, are what allow you to be as ready as you can for such situations.

Note to the Moderators; I firmly believe that anyone should be able to post questions in this forum, but just anybody shouldn’t be able to answer. If you aren’t DIR, aren’t interested in becoming DIR or aren’t going to take a class, then move on to another forum. The TOS is clear about posting here, and Albion has clearly violated it at least once in this thread, most likely more …

Mark

 

[JeffG]

[OFFTOPIC]

Note to the Moderators; I firmly believe that anyone should be able to post questions in this forum, but just anybody shouldn’t be able to answer. If you aren’t DIR, aren’t interested in becoming DIR or aren’t going to take a class, then move on to another forum.

And just how that would that be determined?

The TOS is clear about posting here, and Albion has clealy violated it at least once in this thread, most likely more …

There have been WAY WAY worse "trolls" than anything Albion has done. I read it as coming from frustration more than trolling.

Hey...I've even been accused of trolling LOL

[/OFFTOPIC]