Computers and backups - looking for pearls of wisdom from the more experienced

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

He (the guy who taught me to dive) had nothing nice to say about Suunto. He discouraged me from even looking at them saying they were too conservative.

I used a Suunto before the Perdix came out. Eventually it had a pressure sensor failure which Suunto knew about and they were sued in a class action lawsuit over it. Yes it is conservative especially when doing 3 - 4 dives a day over a two week vacation. It does have some adjustment in the settings. So when I needed to replace my CD I decided on the Perdix due to it's easy to read screen in any conditions especially on my night dives. The Suunto was quite poor in comparison. Also two large buttons instead of 4 very small buttons, being able to use a standard size battery you can change yourself. Being able to switch gas modes on the fly on a dive and no audio alarm.

Suunto were promoted a lot by dive centers for recreational divers and many guides still use them on dives. So for a company that wants their recreational divers to have conservative times to NDL Suunto is perfect for them. The average once or twice a year vacation diver won't be wanting to spend the money on a Perdix and neither will an OW or AOW student in most cases. A lot of dive centers rent out DC's to divers so they will not be handing out the Perdix.
 
Try to find a person who says anything besides Perdix AI or teric w/ back up peregrine. they have cult status at this point, and are deserving of it as well.
 
Apparently reading isn't your strong suite. I watched a DAN hour long presentation from an Anaesthesiologist who is also a tech diver.

:rofl3::rofl3::rofl3: About that reading....
 
The data was pretty convincing. But please tell me about your opinion of my research. They (NEDU) stopped their study halfway through because the statistical data after 400 dives was that RGBM was bending their divers at a significantly higher rate than Buhrmann ZHF16. Yes it was deco diving and yes they were looking at RGBM+deep stops (Suunto default) vs Buhrmann ZHF16 +GF. The net result was that the RGBM+deep stops were unloading fast tissues while continuing to load slow tissues, resulting in DCS for the study participants at a higher rate then the Buhrmann ZHF16 +GF adherents.

The 2011 NEDU https://www.johnchatterton.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/NEDU_TR_2011-06.pdf study did not use RGBM, Buhlman ZHL16 or any Suunto algorithm. It used two Navy algorithms - Thalmann and BVM(3) neither of which you can buy.

We have all read it and the conclusions were beaten to death on various forums over a number of years. Simon and David did an amazing job of getting people to understand those results and the likely reasons.

What did we learn? Don’t do very long dives to moderate depth and use excessively deep stops? What is an excessively deep stop? We don’t know that yet. Somewhere between an explicitly deep stop plan and an ordinary plan. Where exactly? Nobody can say.

GF was invented to ADD (the then fashionable) deep stops to regular dissolved gas models (eg actual ZHL16). Suunto and other manufacturers added (usually optional) “deep stops“ which are actually just 1 minute halts in an ascent. I have a Suunto HelO2 which I use as a backup to a Perdix if doing OC dives. On something like a 35m dive with a bit of deco or not it will give me a 1 minute top at 10 to 20m. If I ignore that it wants a 4 minute safety stop instead of a 3. For the same profile the Perdix on my other wrist will give me more or less the same actual stops. For a proper deco dive it will likely give me a 9m stop when the Suunto might give me a ceiling at 7 or 8m. The last stop might be a handful of minutes different, depending on the actual GF numbers selected and the P value the Suunto is set to. By way of illustration, three divers doing an 80 minute runtime on a 44m wreck using petrel/HelO2, HelO2/HelO2 and Petrel/abacus all had final clearing times within five minutes.

Why do I care? Well I don‘t care what you dive but actual buddies of mine come on here and end up spending £1000 or £800 on a Teric or Perdix AI and then only have one computer because otherwise their wives will literally murder them When they discover £2k spent on computers. This means we get constrained to computer/abacus plans or I lend them a spare Suunto.

SB - Suunto Badmouthing
 
Regular RGBM is published. However, Suunto RGBM is actually just a disolved gas model with some extra edge case handling for fast ascents and short SIs.
Is that really the case, though? They have introduced multiple algorithms over the years, all claiming to be some form of Suunto RGBM. Early dive computers didn't have the power to run a full bubble model so they had to take the shortcuts you mention. I had assumed that their more recent versions were closer to actual RGBM. There's just no way of knowing, which can be seen as a problem.
 
I've never been very successful in finding details regarding Suunto RGBM, Technical RGBM, Fused RGBM, and Fused RGBM 2

I have found even less regarding Cressi or Mares RGBM.

All these algorithms developed in conjunction with Dr Bruce Wienke
 
We have all read it and the conclusions were beaten to death on various forums over a number of years. Simon and David did an amazing job of getting people to understand those results and the likely reasons.
Agreed. What stood out to me more than anything was the way they graphed the slow tissue loading. Less of an issue for me as an NDL recreational diver. My takeaway was that deep stops as shown in the study were a bad practice. I don't do, or plan to do, decompression diving so it's really not applicable to me at this point in my dive universe.
GF was invented to ADD (the then fashionable) deep stops to regular dissolved gas models (eg actual ZHL16). Suunto and other manufacturers added (usually optional) “deep stops“ which are actually just 1 minute halts in an ascent. I have a Suunto HelO2 which I use as a backup to a Perdix if doing OC dives. On something like a 35m dive with a bit of deco or not it will give me a 1 minute top at 10 to 20m. If I ignore that it wants a 4 minute safety stop instead of a 3. For the same profile the Perdix on my other wrist will give me more or less the same actual stops. For a proper deco dive it will likely give me a 9m stop when the Suunto might give me a ceiling at 7 or 8m. The last stop might be a handful of minutes different, depending on the actual GF numbers selected and the P value the Suunto is set to. By way of illustration, three divers doing an 80 minute runtime on a 44m wreck using petrel/HelO2, HelO2/HelO2 and Petrel/abacus all had final clearing times within five minutes.
Interesting data. Thank you for sharing some real world experiences.
Why do I care? Well I don‘t care what you dive but actual buddies of mine come on here and end up spending £1000 or £800 on a Teric or Perdix AI and then only have one computer because otherwise their wives will literally murder them When they discover £2k spent on computers. This means we get constrained to computer/abacus plans or I lend them a spare Suunto.
Regrettably, Scuba, Private Aircraft, and Boats are all not hobbies for the poor man. It probably would be cheaper to light currency on fire and throw it in the air for entertainment.

For the vast majority of us these hobbies incur some form of compromise. So we have to make tradeoffs.

Everyone's choice, influenced by their diving goals and their budget constraints plus any oversight from the Admiralty (wives/partners/family) are right for them under the data that they had at the time. Some folks may need to dive with older computers, sealed computrers, or computers where the customer service is from Comcast.

I've admired Shearwater since they first came out. I really like the concept that I can do most of the maintenance myself. So if the computer turns on in my luggage somehow and drains the battery while traveling I can cure that in whatever place I happen to be in. If my rechargeable batteries suddenly decide not to recharge I'm confident I can buy a AA battery in the Maldives, Philippines, Hawaii, Egypt, Alaska, Australia or wherever I happen to be. All of which assumes I can afford to go to any of those places. lol. Most of my diving has been in the Caribbean which is easy and affordable to get to from Houston, Texas. :)

Net net is that the unpublished model was not the major factor when I decided to return the Suunto. It was one of several factors. I disagree with not publishing their model. Their hardware is unique enough that the model shouldn't be the competitive factor.

I also did not like certain things about the interface. I disliked how the bungie option attached to the computer and didn't realize how it worked until I got it and read the manual. I don't fully trust the strap. To put it another way I would not use that strap to secure a $1,000 USD bill. If it comes loose it will do so at an inopportune time where the computer will never be seen again.

I did like how the cable attached. That was genius compared to the IRda crap that my old SmartCom has. Well, at least until you lose the cable. No worse than magnetic charging though. If you lose or damage the Qi charger you are stuck until you find another one. Not sure how easy that would be in some parts of the World.

Customer service was a factor, and my friend that owns an LDS and who was my first Instructor not liking them was also a factor. Had I been stuck with it I could have survived, but I had the option to return it so I did. I had originally hoped the screen would be big enough to read without glasses. When I received it I realized that wasn't the case and I was going to be getting bi-focal inserts for my dive mask anyway.

As for backup computers..... for me it's really about not losing dives again. Trips are expensive. I got burned by my SmartCom adjusting the gas settings... My fault for not checking it, but it never occurred to me that the computer would brush against something and magically modify the O2 setting all by itself. That is a crap interface and no critical setting should happen by itself without confirmation. The little contacts were always difficult to use.
 
Is that really the case, though? They have introduced multiple algorithms over the years, all claiming to be some form of Suunto RGBM. Early dive computers didn't have the power to run a full bubble model so they had to take the shortcuts you mention. I had assumed that their more recent versions were closer to actual RGBM. There's just no way of knowing, which can be seen as a problem.

I haven't seen the actual formulae, though I have not spent much time looking. I've only seen the verbal explanations of what "Reductions of Gradient" are and why. RGBM has a number of tweakable parameters they could adjust to each manufacturer's preference is one thing, the other is it's relatively compute-heavy and wouldn't run on basic Cressi Seiko watches or low-end Suuntos. So there's a "folded" version that -- presumably as this what we programmers normally do in such cases -- replaces computation with lookup tables, or a combination of simplified formulae and pre-computed numbers.
 
Is that really the case, though? They have introduced multiple algorithms over the years, all claiming to be some form of Suunto RGBM. Early dive computers didn't have the power to run a full bubble model so they had to take the shortcuts you mention. I had assumed that their more recent versions were closer to actual RGBM. There's just no way of knowing, which can be seen as a problem.
Yes, see below
I've never been very successful in finding details regarding Suunto RGBM, Technical RGBM, Fused RGBM, and Fused RGBM 2
http://ns.suunto.com/pdf/Suunto_Dive_Fused_RGBM_brochure_EN.pdf?_ga=2.166246334.1473238390.1581487213-1580645497.1581487213
If you want to be a nerd look at page 5. If you want to be a diver who’s not thinking “hmm, is the deep and long enough for 50/80 or will 50/85 be ok?” see page 8.

To understand how bogus the algorithms we all use are, consider a dive day that is repeated 10m bounce dives. These are the sorts of thing you are warned to avoid due to recompressing bubbles and allowing them past the lungs where they can expand during the ascent and block the arterial system. The pure dissolved gas models do not consider this at all - it is just about area under the curve. Even things like VPM that are supposed to be bubble models will let you do this all day long.

Fortunately people are generally sensible and so the models work well enough. All of them.
 
This means we get constrained to computer/abacus plans or I lend them a spare Suunto
Abacus and tables backup issue solved with Deep6 Excursion. Looking forward to its full tech firmware.

Now I just need to get the Shearwater primary, but its not yet a pressing enough need. Though this is now the second 'backup' I've bought for my 'future' Shearwater. But both good choices I think.

I'll buy that different algorithms work just fine. But the prevalence of GF is enough of a tilt that way for me.
 

Back
Top Bottom