Cookies or arrows?

Cookies or arrows? And where were you trained?

  • Mexico -- cookies

    Votes: 5 12.5%
  • Mexico -- arrows

    Votes: 2 5.0%
  • Florida -- cookies

    Votes: 14 35.0%
  • Florida -- arrows

    Votes: 19 47.5%

  • Total voters
    40

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Abso-freaking-lutely. Arrows are a backup for your brain, NOT the other way around. If I knows the arrows are supposed to point one way in the part of the cave I'm in and that's the way they're pointing, then I know I'm going the right way.

Should I lose visability at Olsen and want to exit at P1, I know that the arrows point towards me for the first 700 feet and then turn in the middle. Lines, arrows, cookies, and blinking neon signs are no substitute for knowing the cave you're in.

So then why have any markers? or any line for that matter.
Let's all just go in the cave and progressively penetrate, and learn the cave and we wont need anything right ?

Should be no problem getting a team of 3 out blind from a multitude of left/right turns with no line in the same amount of time it took to get in, right ?

EDIT: Richard is not saying "believe the markers like they were the word of god"
but if you see on the way out a bunch of markers that you know you left on the way in, they act as clues that you are going the right way.

Of course you need to learn the cave, but are you really saying that someone could put you in any passage you've ever been in, close your eyes, spin you around, swim you up and down for a bit and you would immediately know exactly where you are, were the exit is etc. etc. ?
 
So basically you ignore them rather than place your own unique markers to maintain a continuous guideline. To me, a guideline isn't much of a line if you are heading the wrong direction on it. I'll place the non-directional markers, its not much time and is more reliable than memory.

I hope you never get turned around in MX there's no flow to orient you. I did once in Temple of Doom, took me about 3 mins and my wetnotes to understand why my brain and the line weren't matching up.


No, I take note of every single arrow I see. Excluding low visability, if you couldn't dive the cave without the lines you don't know it well enough. Period. The line is no substitute for knowing the cave.
 
The back of Gerrard's book has some (older) accident summaries and in a couple of them the divers were lost and the team argue about which was was out. Some made it to tell about how they couldn't agree.
 
No, I take note of every single arrow I see. Excluding low visability, if you couldn't dive the cave without the lines you don't know it well enough. Period. The line is no substitute for knowing the cave.

No one is saying that. The point is that if you "take note" of markers, or place any (including line) then either on the way out

1) you ignore them (so why put them there in the first place)
2) you make some kind of use of them to help you confirm you are exiting the way you came in

the question is
- what markers do you place and in what situations
- what do they "mean" on the way out.
 
No, I take note of every single arrow I see. Excluding low visability, if you couldn't dive the cave without the lines you don't know it well enough. Period. The line is no substitute for knowing the cave.

I can dive the cave without the arrows when I can see. The whole point of markings is for low/no vis.

If you don't mark arrow directional changes how do you know the whole team will understand where they are and that they need to go "against" the arrows?
 
So then why have any markers? or any line for that matter.
Let's all just go in the cave and progressively penetrate, and learn the cave and we wont need anything right ?

Should be no problem getting a team of 3 out blind from a multitude of left/right turns with no line in the same amount of time it took to get in, right ?

EDIT: Richard is not saying "believe the markers like they were the word of god"
but if you see on the way out a bunch of markers that you know you left on the way in, they act as clues that you are going the right way.

Of course you need to learn the cave, but are you really saying that someone could put you in any passage you've ever been in, close your eyes, spin you around, swim you up and down for a bit and you would immediately know exactly where you are, were the exit is etc. etc. ?

I never said that you'd never need lines or markers. They're useful references but they should not be your primary means of navigation in a cave. Lines should be run in all passages in case of a zero or very low visability situation when visual references cannot be used. Arrows should point to the nearest exit.

Any change in the directionality of the arrows should be expected and noted. Marking each arrow that doesn't point towards your exit is only necessary if you're incapable of memorizing the cave, the line, and the arrows and also being able to stay calm enough to access that memory in a stressful situation. Looking to the line to tell you which way to go on a routine dive is inexcusable. If you're not learning the cave and staying within your comfort zone you should reevaluate your decision to cave dive.

Your no line/blind example is completely irrelevant to this discussion. Those two scenarios are being addressed separately. If you put me one of my buddies 2000' in Ginnie and yank the lines I'll see you in the Eye in 30 minutes or less. It's remarkable what one can learn in about 100 cave dives Ginnie over a span of about 18 months.

Regarding your last statement: With few exceptions, yes. If not, I wouldn't have to go more than 100' before I figured it out. If the visibility were to suddenly drop to zero, I'd know exactly where I saw the line last--which direction, how far, and whether or not it was above or below me. Chances are I'd be on the line before the visibility hit zero.

Line following isn't thinking. It's a crutch. Learning the cave and having a mental map of the system that you can up date every second is the only safe way to navigate. Note turns, landmarks, odd formations, big rocks, etc, and use those to find your way. It's no different than driving to the grocery store. You rely on the lines when your primary navigation tools--visual references--aren't available. If at any point you don't know the way out, you've already screwed up. There's no excuse for getting lost. It's simply careless. The ONLY time you should be completely dependent on the line is in zero visibility. At all other times you just make sure you know where it is and verify markers as you go past.

I'm not saying that one one shouldn't use markers. I'm saying that they should never tell you something that you don't already know.
 
I can dive the cave without the arrows when I can see. The whole point of markings is for low/no vis.

If you don't mark arrow directional changes how do you know the whole team will understand where they are and that they need to go "against" the arrows?


Dive with good buddies.
 
No one is saying that. The point is that if you "take note" of markers, or place any (including line) then either on the way out

1) you ignore them (so why put them there in the first place)
2) you make some kind of use of them to help you confirm you are exiting the way you came in

the question is
- what markers do you place and in what situations
- what do they "mean" on the way out.


#1 is a terrible idea. #2 is what everybody needs to do.

Personally? I drop markers at Ts and unmarked jumps. I'd use one if I had to do a lost buddy or lost line search, also. They tell me from which way I came (Ts). It's a function of habit, not necessity. It's more of a confirmation that I've comitted something to memory than anything else.
 
Line following isn't thinking. It's a crutch. Learning the cave and having a mental map of the system that you can up date every second is the only safe way to navigate. Note turns, landmarks, odd formations, big rocks, etc, and use those to find your way.


I dont think anyone suggested anything different (except that when blind, out of necessity you are going to have to rely more on markers than when you can see)

The question was: Assuming that you do need to lay markers, what do you lay in what situation and what do you then use the information for.

No one said you shouldn't learn the cave (at least that I remember)
 
Personally? I drop markers at Ts and unmarked jumps. I'd use one if I had to do a lost buddy or lost line search, also. They tell me from which way I came (Ts). It's a function of habit, not necessity. It's more of a confirmation that I've comitted something to memory than anything else.

Which is exactly what I do, except that I also put a non-directional marker on my exit side of an arrow after it has changed direction (this is used to "reinforce" the exit, but not as a crutch to knowing the way out)

I also take care not to put in arrows unless I am sure they wont mess up the navigation.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

Back
Top Bottom