Correct use of the word "American"

[Ron Lee]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

Due to its length, and so that it may be found more easily by searchers, this side discussion has been split off of another thread which may be found here: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/cozumel/471618-corporate-foreign-diving-ousts-dive-palancar.html

Marg, SB Senior Moderator

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"Americans" are not the center of the Inverse. "

Actually we are.

"And BTW - Mexicans and Canadians are also "Americans"

Not so. "American" means US citizen. If you mean "North Americans" then OK but who uses that term?

 

[DandyDon]

Actually we are.

Eh, that's daft. The Mexican government did indeed create the Cancun market with Americans as the objective, but times have changed.

Not so. "American" means US citizen. If you mean "North Americans" then OK but who uses that term?

Yes, well - we could go by Statesmen, but it just doesn't have a ring to it. In fact, it could cause more confusion with the United Mexican States. While in the broad sense, there are dozens of countries in North and South America (Central America if you want to separate them altho many include them in one of the other two) who are technically Americans, but they all have other national names.

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[Skittl1321]

And BTW - Mexicans and Canadians are also "Americans"

A bit off topic- but what is the word for people from the USA in Mexico? A friend who lives in Panama told me they call us Norteamericanos, since they see themselves as Americans (from the Americas), but Canadians and Mexicans were called that- not Norteamericanos despite being from North America, which doesn't really clarify the "Mexicans and Canadians are Americans too issue"

 

[victorzamora]

Latin americans refuse to use the term "American" mostly out of spite/anger/resentment. The two common (and most grossly inaccurate) are "Norteamericanos" and "Estado-unidenses." The first means North Americans, and specifically describes people from North America: Canadians, Americans, and Mexicans. Estado-unidenses means "United State-ians" but is as ignorant as Norteamericanos because Mexico is "Los Estados Unidos de Mexico" and we're "Los Estados Unidos de America" or "United States of Mexico" and "United States of America". If they call themselves "Mexicans" which is the suffix to their "United States of..." then we should be called "Americans" because that's OUR suffix. I disagree VEHEMENTLY with anybody that states we shouldn't be called "Americans" and coin them immediately as ignorant and/or resentful.

A similar argument that I can SEE logically, is people not wanting us to call it "America." America is more associated with a continent than a country.....but Mexico calls themselves "Mexico" using their suffix. If we can't call ourselves "America" then they shouldn't be allowed to call themselves "Mexico." I agree that it's an unfortunate naming scheme, but it's what's been in place for hundreds of years. Wanting to change it now is this whole common hatred of Americans, mostly stemming from condescension, ignorance, or spite.

However, the word for people from the USA in Mexico would officially be "Ex-pat" or "Tourist" depending on the length of their stay and/or the goals of their stay. Non-officially, they could either be called "endangered" or "lucky" depending on where they are.

BTW, I can say all of this with high levels of confidence as someone born and raised in Central America (El Salvador, specifically).

---------- Post added December 10th, 2013 at 09:35 AM ----------

I can't believe that it's such a concern that a dive shop has non-natives on staff, especially when we are talking about Mexico. Many, if not most places around the world when it comes to diving you more often than not experience a dive staff that is a mixture of natives and foreigners sometimes the mix is 90% foreigners. In Mexico at the most it's ever going to be is 10% foreigners. What's the big deal? I like a mixed dive staff, they bring a nice cosmopolitan atmosphere to the experience, in Roatan I've dived with shops with a very German influence, in French Polynesia it was a very French influcence, in other places you see mixtures of dive masters from all over the world, Brits, Aussies, etc... of any place on the planet to make a complaint about foreigners taking jobs from locals, Mexico is far down on the list where this takes place, the laws are so heavily protectionist it just isn't possible. To complain about 1 out of 10 on staff being not Mexican just seems weird.

To add to this, many places aren't discriminatory based on nationality. They want guarantees of quality and safety. Typically, the "typical" people from an area (especially 3rd world countries) aren't as likely to be certified instructors. I know in Roatan, my favorite dive op has an instructor born and raised on Roatan by parents who were born and raised on Roatan. He's 100% Honduran, but lucky enough to have landed an instructor spot. As far as Mexican vs Foreign dive op owners, I don't care who owns them as long as the service is good. I don't care about the nationality of the people running it, as long as the service is good. If a German-owned company can staff their Dive Op with nothing but French, Spaniards, Dutch, and Kiwis, but their service is great.....who am I to complain? Also, if they can make better money and provide a better service at the same or better price with the people they're staffing, or the dive op there previously, I think we should be for it! Diving is all about fun...the only time to introduce politics is when people start trying to infringe upon our fun.

 

[Skittl1321]

However, the word for people from the USA in Mexico would officially be "Ex-pat" or "Tourist" depending on the length of their stay and/or the goals of their stay.

Well, that doesn't really specify people from the USA- that applies to Canadians, Germans, Brits, Aussies, Ugandans, everyone who isn't a Mexican.

Interesting your experience is Norteamericanos is used to describe all North Americans, my friend (who has lived and worked in Panama for 5 years) say it is used there specifically for the USA.

 

[victorzamora]

The term for an American-specific Ex-pat in mexico is most probably: "Gringo-hijueputa" or "maldito gringo"

And no, what I meant was "Norteamericano" is used by people to describe people from the USA.....but "Norteamericano" just designates all North Americans and is a wildly inaccurate term.

 

[paulw]

I guess I'm confused where thread this has gone or is going but what the heck: I like diving with Blue XT~SEA and Aldora and as far as the final questions I'm a Texan

 

[Skittl1321]

I guess I'm confused where thread this has gone or is going

Maybe it's due to the currents, but it seems that the Cozumel forum experiences an unusual amount of thread drift...

 

[Mike]

Wanting to change it now is this whole common hatred of Americans, mostly stemming from condescension, ignorance, or spite.

...you forgot jealousy.

To be resentful of the most generous and charitable people on the planet just shows ignorance and jealousy of what the powerful combination of democracy, capitalism and freedom has accomplished, probably because that person is residing in a country that is most likely missing one or more of those elements.

 

[Christi]

Latin americans refuse to use the term "American" mostly out of spite/anger/resentment. The two common (and most grossly inaccurate) are "Norteamericanos" and "Estado-unidenses." The first means North Americans, and specifically describes people from North America: Canadians, Americans, and Mexicans. Estado-unidenses means "United State-ians" but is as ignorant as Norteamericanos because Mexico is "Los Estados Unidos de Mexico" and we're "Los Estados Unidos de America" or "United States of Mexico" and "United States of America". If they call themselves "Mexicans" which is the suffix to their "United States of..." then we should be called "Americans" because that's OUR suffix. I disagree VEHEMENTLY with anybody that states we shouldn't be called "Americans" and coin them immediately as ignorant and/or resentful.

A similar argument that I can SEE logically, is people not wanting us to call it "America." America is more associated with a continent than a country.....but Mexico calls themselves "Mexico" using their suffix. If we can't call ourselves "America" then they shouldn't be allowed to call themselves "Mexico." I agree that it's an unfortunate naming scheme, but it's what's been in place for hundreds of years. Wanting to change it now is this whole common hatred of Americans, mostly stemming from condescension, ignorance, or spite.

However, the word for people from the USA in Mexico would officially be "Ex-pat" or "Tourist" depending on the length of their stay and/or the goals of their stay. Non-officially, they could either be called "endangered" or "lucky" depending on where they are.

BTW, I can say all of this with high levels of confidence as someone born and raised in Central America (El Salvador, specifically).

---------- Post added December 10th, 2013 at 09:35 AM ----------



To add to this, many places aren't discriminatory based on nationality. They want guarantees of quality and safety. Typically, the "typical" people from an area (especially 3rd world countries) aren't as likely to be certified instructors. I know in Roatan, my favorite dive op has an instructor born and raised on Roatan by parents who were born and raised on Roatan. He's 100% Honduran, but lucky enough to have landed an instructor spot. As far as Mexican vs Foreign dive op owners, I don't care who owns them as long as the service is good. I don't care about the nationality of the people running it, as long as the service is good. If a German-owned company can staff their Dive Op with nothing but French, Spaniards, Dutch, and Kiwis, but their service is great.....who am I to complain? Also, if they can make better money and provide a better service at the same or better price with the people they're staffing, or the dive op there previously, I think we should be for it! Diving is all about fun...the only time to introduce politics is when people start trying to infringe upon our fun.

Thank you Victor for explaining this so accurately and thoroughly to those who were questioning I logged off after my post last night and am just now getting back on line here this morning - so I appreciate you taking the time to do this so I didn't have to

I agree with you and the logic and illogical reasons - BUT - it is that way around here and some of the local people get VERY offended when people from the USA refer to themselves as "Americans" implying htat the Mexican people are not "Americans."

On all of my immigration documents, which they are very strict about as well - we are "Norteamericanos" - which I agree is silly - but it is what it is.

BUT, to those clarifying what a "foreigner" is - it is still also true that "foreigner" here is anyone with a nationality other than Mexican. Just as in the United States, "foreigner" is anyone that is not a US Citizen and a "foreigner" in ANY country is someone who is not a citizen of that country Those of us who live here are referred to as "ex-pats" - even after we aquire permanent residency and in many cases citizenship - because it is not assumed that we have reached those.