"Correct Weighting" Identified as #1 Needed Improvement in SCUBA Diving

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I had I idea i was not the norm. I must have spent weeks reading and referencing diving and intended to carry on. Do people really just get the card and that's it off they go? To me that's just crazy/suicidal / dumb. Seriously?

Yes. They are unaware of the dangers. I was told to not frighten students with why they would want to be able to recover and clear their mask. "Oh that is going to happen to me and I'm scared now." I don't buy that for a second. Being underwater isn't inherently safe. We make it as safe as possible through training, equipment, and good judgment.

If folks are really that slack about basic scuba then all the instructors across all the agencies must be doing a bloody good job (on average). If the only training people are bothering with is just getting a card then then they must be otherwise floating bodies would be everywhere?

Those who are just diving for experiences go through DSD or OW and dive once on vacation and never dive again.

I don't think that instructors are doing all that great of a job. It is extreme cases where there is bad judgment where bad things can happen. Or simply bad luck (heart attack during a dive for an example).

 

[soggybadger]

Maybe the difference is my instruction was in a cold manky quarry and you had to want to be there as opposed to being tempted by beautiful seas whilst on holiday. Not saying one is better than the other just different motivating factors.

 

[TMHeimer]

Nobody likes carrying around heavy things. I guess warm-water only resort divers dont have to suffer that much if theyre just shuffling to the end of the boat. But if a diver knows that they dont really need to carry around all that extra weight, thats pretty much all the incentive they need. So they just need proper training.

As I mentioned before, my OW instructor overweighted me in training -- but he told me I was overweighted and gave me tips and incentive to continually drop weight, which I did. And he taught me (mostly) mid-water, not on my knees. That was enough for me. Some of the instructors here go much further, helping new divers achieve optimal weight from the get go, which is commendable.

But even if the instructor hadnt provided this information, I read the materials and knew about the concept of proper weighing, and how to do a weight check. The manual even covered things like breathing, skulling, and proper emptying of a BC, all things that can lead to overweighing. Took me awhile to put the theory into successful practice -- l longer than my OW dives, but soon enough I did it.

It seems like you need a combination of poor instruction and a complacent diver to result in overweighing. I'm sure that there are plenty of divers overweighed by 4-10 lbs bc of such a combination.

So it seems like the answer is just proper instruction - midwater, off their knees

And if a diver still ends up in the extreme case of being 20+ lbs overweight -- well, you cant fix everything, and folks like this are why they have the Darwin awards

You've got a good LDS. I vaguely recall being (probably) overweighted on my OW checkout dives (was 12 years ago). I don't recall our group having weight checks prior to OW Dive 1(but we may have). I was "up & down" some on that dive, but that was more likely due to getting used to using short bursts of air with the LPI. But, it was November in Nova Scotia, so hanging around in or out of water more than absolutely necessary that time of year.
Anyway, I agree with your point about poor instruction and diver complacency being factors. But I would think complacency is the bigger factor. Regarding learning skills on the pool bottom--I did and within just a few dives my buoyancy was fine--I was hovering at will. That's why I put the emphasis on complacency. Neutral vs. On Knees has been discussed enough.
Oh, my instructor was excellent, though I didn't really know that until assisting with one of her courses 7 years later. As a new OW student one (or at least I) doesn't know which end is up.

 

[Colliam7]

Padi got me into the water and trained me how to not drown now it's my responsibility to become a diver.

Yes!!! Nicely put.

 

[REVAN]

I came across this video that has a good mathematical explanation for why @The Chairman and I can never agree on the BC issue.


If one person is 100% sure that scuba diving without a BC is a stupid mistake and should never be attempted by anyone, and the other person is 100% certain that there are many instances where diving without a BC is acceptable or possibly even preferred, Bayes' Theorem predicts that no amount of debate can ever resolve the difference in opinion, given these initial starting assumptions.

So, don't feel bad for . It's just applied mathematics in action!

 

[soggybadger]

I came across this video that has a good mathematical explanation for why @The Chairman and I can never agree on the BC issue.


If one person is 100% sure that scuba diving without a BC is a stupid mistake and should never be attempted by anyone, and the other person is 100% certain that there are many instances where diving without a BC is acceptable or possibly even preferred, Bayes' Theorem predicts that no amount of debate can ever resolve the difference in opinion, given these initial starting assumptions.

So, don't feel bad for . It's just applied mathematics in action![/QUOTE

I came across this video that has a good mathematical explanation for why @The Chairman and I can never agree on the BC issue.


If one person is 100% sure that scuba diving without a BC is a stupid mistake and should never be attempted by anyone, and the other person is 100% certain that there are many instances where diving without a BC is acceptable or possibly even preferred, Bayes' Theorem predicts that no amount of debate can ever resolve the difference in opinion, given these initial starting assumptions.

So, don't feel bad for . It's just applied mathematics in action!

The difference is not one. You have a handful of people for whom the concept is agreeable and a vast majority who think you are talking out of your arse. I have read a few of your articles and have to point out that you use a lot of big words out of context. I believe this is a tactic to try to hide the fact that you are ignorante.

 

[Neilwood]

What I take from the original report is that there are issues with overweighting.

@REVAN is looking at the problem from one viewpoint (streamlining and efficiency) with what appears to be blinkers as to how the "solution" he presents, while fitting his goal of streamlining, does not answer the safety aspect for all divers. He appears to be throwing the baby out with the bath water with his solution though - the issue in the report is overweighting not BCD use. Proper weighting combined with a BCD is a very, very safe way to dive.

Training, IMHO, should be standardised as far as possible (with minor tweaks to suit local conditions). That is the training model for most, if not all major training agencies so I guess they agree with me. AFAIK most if not all of the agencies standards include for proper weight checks to be taught and practised. This should allow divers to safely titrate their weight until they reach "ideal". Any diver not performing weight checks in this way is not acting in accordance with the way they should have been trained (underlined for emphasis) - the fault could be theirs (not diving the way they were trained) or their instructors (not teaching and emphasising weight checks during and after qualification).

No BCD diving in my location with a thick wetsuit and relatively deep dives (20-30m) is an unsafe practise IMHO as there is no way to compensate for the buoyancy offset of the suit compression at depth or gas weight. Note that using a drysuit (without BCD) would effectively act like a BCD albeit a crude one with a large air bubble therefore to my mind would not be acceptable to Revan's way of thinking.

 

[The Chairman]

If one person is 100% sure that scuba diving without a BC is a stupid mistake and should never be attempted

You've mischaracterized what I have posted. I don't have an issue with anyone doing a 'throw back' dive or having fun as they see fit without a BC. I have an issue with requiring that students learn how to dive without a BC. It's an incredibly stupid idea. I strongly doubt that it would increase weighting awareness much as I remember seeing divers of old kicking the crap out of the bottom back in the 70s before the BC became de rigueur for our sport. Just because you don't see how you can learn proper weighting with a BC doesn't mean that it can't be done or that it isn't being done. Further, depriving students of learning how to properly use a BC from the beginning puts them in needless jeopardy from drowning at the end of the dive as well as violates one of the primary tenets of scuba instruction: teach your students with the gear they will be using. Moreover, teaching students without a BC also violates the standards of every Scuba agency that I know of. Yeah, if your instructor is trying to pull this stunt: PLEASE REPORT THEM ASAP.

I've asked, but I have not seen the answer, of whether you're a Scuba Instructor or not. My guess, is that you're not and you've never taught a Scuba class in your life. Ergo, your opinion about how students should be taught should not be taken with just a grain of salt, but the whole damn shaker. I am posting from experience in teaching students and even teaching instructors how to teach. You're posting from your delusions that have no basis in reality.

To be clear and to put this into perspective. I'm not saying that you're stupid. That would be unfriendly and against the ToS. However, the idea that Scuba students should be taught without a BC is not only one of the most stupid ideas that has ever been posited on ScubaBoard, but it's also one of the most downright dangerous ones. No, I'm not against people diving without a BC. I have hundreds of dives without one and I like to see the throwback divers from time to time. Hopefully, they know and fully understand the perils and dive in such a manner as to increase their safety. But there is no benefit in first learning to dive without the benefit of a BC and there are several drawbacks including violating standards, exposing yourself to needless legal liability, injuries and even death. It's just not worth it on any level.

Now, before you tell people what I am asserting, please come back to THIS POST to get it straight. I find your distortion of what I believe to be tiresome and self serving, even duplicitous. Please stop. I don't need to rehash this ad nauseum. Consider this my final manifesto on the subject and try not to distort what I've posted. It's insulting and I don't appreciate it.

 

[boulderjohn]

Any diver not performing weight checks in this way is not acting in accordance with the way they should have been trained (underlined for emphasis) - the fault could be theirs (not diving the way they were trained) or their instructors (not teaching and emphasising weight checks during and after qualification).

.....and just to repeat ad nauseum, I am going to cast most of the blame on the instructors who MUST disregard the standards requiring proper weighting in order to anchor students to the bottom while they learn skills on the knees.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

Before PDIC was purchased by Tom Leaird of SEI, we (PDIC HQ staff) tried returning to introducing 1 piece of equipment at a time in the pool and got much better results.

I now do something like this:

Swim the 200 you get to tread water.
Tread water you get to drown proof.
Drown proof you get to deadman's float.
Deadman's float you get to jellyfish bob.
Jellyfish bob you get a wetsuit.
Jellyfish bobbing with suit gets you a snorkel.
Snorkel breathing correctly gets you a tank.
Tank valve breathing gets you a reg.
Reg breathing and clearing gets you a weightbelt.
Weightbelt ditch and don gets you a fin.
One fin gets you two.
Two fins gets you a harness.
Scuba skills with no mask gets you a mask.
Scuba skills performed with lung buoyancy gets you a BCD ...

Students seem to like it.