Could/should I do rescue?

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@Diver0001 I have been involved in several very real emergency scenarios.

... must ... resist ... kicking ... in ... open ... door :)

The course has been so watered down it's ridiculous.
...snip...

I took the course twice as I said above. In 1985 and in 2000. Based on my personal experience over a period of more than 30 years of diving of which that time has been spent about 50/50 as a PADI pro and as a recreational diver, I can say with some degree of confidence that you are ... well ... lying. The course has not been watered down. The standard has not changed significantly, if at all, in the last 30 years. In fact, the books have been improved but aside from marginal changes the course is the same today as it was in 1985.

What MAY have changed is people's expectations, as I believe has happened in your case. You have taken advanced training and now look at the rescue course in a different light. The course hasn't changed. YOU have. When you took rescue I'm sure (I'm willing to put money on that bet) you didn't describe it in the same negative terms that you do now. In fact, it was one of the foundations that made you the diver you are today, as it did for me and as it did for a great many divers around the world.

I didn't ask you for details about the accidents where you have been present but try to imagine how you would have responded if you had not received any training.....

So I'll ask genuinely. Why do you think all divers should take it unless they fall into the future leadership category ... snip....

Because we are involved in a sport in which things can potentially go wrong -- badly wrong -- and if you are the only person there then doing something is better than doing nothing.... and if you have received training the SOMETHING you do may be marginally better than nothing and that ONE thing you remembered from your training may mean the difference between someone living or dying.

That's why.

Now the question to you. Why would you deny the average diver of that?

R..
 
Whether professional, technical, or recreational it will give you the skill set and knowledge to be a better diver and a better dive partner.

Thanks, I have zero interest in being a pro ... just a rec diver. But I don't just want to stop where I am. I've overcome a lot to get to this point - including an absolute fear of putting my toe in the water three years ago. So each new cert is a source of pride for me (as well as making me a more competent and knowledgeable diver and buddy) ... a reminder of how far I have come.

Re @tbone1004 and @Diver0001, is it possible that the "watering down" is related to the online material? I learned WAY more from my instructor during my OW sessions than I ever learned from the online course. Some of the things he covered would be impractical/impossible to cover online. I did the online learning for both my OW and AOW. For rescue, I would completely forgo the online training and do it in a classroom environment.
 
I'm one of those in the "can't hurt, will probably help" category. I thought that in 2002, and still think now, that it has made me a better and more cautious diver, and a better buddy. I did it at 50 dives.

I also think the better trained you are, the more perceptive you'll be at spotting a situation underwater and helping out *before* it becomes one of those "unconscious diver on the bottom" scenarios. Sort of ironic, training for rescue may make it less likely you'll need to actually do it.

My only "quasi-rescue" was a surface-tow assist to a panicked diver who had lost the end of the boat's trail line at night in rough seas offshore, after she had removed her fins. She was just "bicycling" and drifting away from the boat with those unseeing dinner-plate eyes. I happened to be the closest diver, so I towed her to the trail rope, and nearly sucked my own tank dry doing it. This was just before the Rescue course, so it was all improv.
 
Re @tbone1004 and @Diver0001, is it possible that the "watering down" is related to the online material?

Absolutely not (with a qualifier that I'll get to in a minute). As an instructor I am a HUGE fan of e-learning. I use (insist) that students follow e-learning for my OW course (my main focus).

Years ago the theory part of the OW course consisted for a large part of me standing in front of the class reading the book to them. These days I have the same amount of time with them but they come prepared, which, before e-learning, was not the norm.

The first thing I do is give them the test and if it shows up that they are not prepared then they go home and we reschedule. I'm hard about this. if you're going to take a course that includes a theory portion then you need to learn the theory too. If you can't find the time then that's fine. There can be many reasons why the tempo of the course is too high. People have jobs, kids, hobbies etc. and I'm happy to slow down the pace to suit what they find comfortable. I don't "rag" on people if they aren't prepared but I don't take them in the pool either.....

That said, e-learning means that in a 2 hour theory lesson where in the past I spent at least an hour verifying that they read the book, I can now spend an EXTRA hour deeping out the material and teaching them stuff that is NOT in the book. In other words, the efficiency of the time I spend with students has doubled because of e-learning and the end result is much better.

... and now the qualifier..... IF you go to a shop that reduces classroom time because you took e-learning then run away. This approach leads to a severe reduction in the quality of theory lessons. If, however, you find a shop that uses e-learning AND still spends time with students then you have struck gold. Go there.

R..
 
New diver - 37 dives over 3 trips to the Caribbean and finished AOW on most recent trip.

So what's next?
- I'm really good on air - usually using about 1600 pounds on a 60 min dive.
- I'm (reasonably) good on buoyancy although I know there is room for improvement.
- I need work on finning techniques - especially backwards.

I'm reasonably fit but not athletic, not a strong swimmer and I'm pretty small.

Worried that the requirements for rescue might be too physically difficult for me. So where do I go from here?

I didnt take the time to read the other posts, so this may have already been said...
The rescue diver course is a great learning experience. What I will say is that you have no business learning to help others if you are not competant in managing your own self. Not just keeping neutral and such, but in task loaded environments such as current, while staying neutral, while fixing your camera, etc..). You may already be proficient. The point is, once you feel comfortable with your skills in a slightly task loaded environment then find a quality rescue course and do it. It is worth it.

btw, you may enjoy learning how to figure your respiratory minute volume (RMV) to help keep track of your progression with air consumption :wink:
 
My experience as a newer diver is that that value of a class is mostly set by the student and the teacher. Most classes I have had added little beyond the book/online portion, which has left me skeptical of classes in general. A couple added far more knowledge than was covered by prep materials, and I would happily sign up for a class taught by those two instructors that I wouldn't otherwise be interested in.

Other than that I look at classes to fill gaps in my knowledge and help me progress to dive where and as I aspire to dive. I read the content of the Rescue class for Naui and I felt for me it didn't have much to offer. (I am trained in cpr/first aid/02 admin/some emergency response already.) But for a lot of people it probably does. My guess for the OP is that it probably is a worthwhile class for her to take. Worthwhile is intensely subjective. If you don't know what to do if a diver panics and rejects his/her reg and mask on the bottom, take the class. If you do, it has less value.
 
btw, you may enjoy learning how to figure your respiratory minute volume (RMV) to help keep track of your progression with air consumption :wink:

As a data and analytics geek, I absolutely would like to. How do I do that?
 
I took rescue and it had the panicked diver situation. It had the unconscious diver, tow to shore and get em out of the water. And a number a permutations of the same. It was great fun.

A course that brief instruction will not make one competent at rescuing anyone. But I have been in a few situations and I was able to offer some assistance to the professionals rather than getting in the way. It is more a matter of mind set.

A dive professional once told me that generally to be a diving fatality, one has to make three wrong decisions in a row. Rescue emphasizes the mind set of identifying problems and solving them as they happen. Just doing that can break the train of events leading to disaster.

It really should not be called rescue but “self rescue”. The course is more about not getting into trouble or getting out of a minor problem before it becomes a major problem.

Also size in the water is not that big of an issue. A large person can be easily towed or guided to the surface by a much smaller person.

I once saw a dive professional handle a budding but ticklish emergency. She was rather short, plump, middle aged and she dealt with the matter calmly, quickly and efficiently at some risk to herself. I was really impressed.
 
most rescue courses are a joke and if you are certified in first aid/CPR there really isn't anything IMO that is worth taking that course from most instructors.

As a recreational diver myself, I could not disagree more with this statement. I took Rescue and it is such a great course, it should be made mandatory for all divers. All prior classes (OW, AOW from PADI) had curriculum that had the student focusing on themselves. Rescue had curriculum that focused on your own safety as well as that of others and having more safety awareness. It teaches one to identify issues as they arise to prevent snowballing effects but how to manage a situation when one is already hitting the fan. It teaches one to be a better dive buddy and that is important to me because my dive buddy is also my best friend and partner. To say that it is a joke is a very far stretch and reach; it suggests that it does not add anything to the diver's knowledge base or offer any benefit to the diver and I completely disagree.

@Diver0001 I have been involved in several very real emergency scenarios.

come audit a rescue course in the US if you think it's arrogance. The course has been so watered down it's ridiculous. I'm not saying "mine is better and you should take mine". When you have a full semester to teach AOW/Rescue, you can do a lot more. The problem is that what is taught in the course really isn't that useful for "most" divers because they don't have the equipment, or are diving in scenarios where the people that have the equipment are dealing with the problem. You're a dive professional, I assume you have the stuff, I am a dive professional, I do have the stuff. I'll get to the exceptions at the bottom.

There are three points of the rescue diver course.
Preventing an accident from occurring-most rescue courses will emphasize on this from what I've seen, but that should all be covered in any fundamentals type course
Getting a diver to shore-finding one, bringing him to the surface, then bringing to shore
Dealing with him once at the shore

Now, I don't have any PADI standards newer than 2002, so we'll look at IANTD and NAUI.

Diving First Aid, CPR, O2 admin is done concurrently or before the course-this takes care of the third one and is the one that I said you should take.


Now, let's address the middle bit for getting a diver to shore.
Missing diver-search patterns, etc. we do a lot of work with this, but the real world benefit is limited, again see exceptions at the bottom. We also emphasize that once you have to start this, especially from the surface, it's going to be a recovery not a rescue. There are exceptions, but highly unlikely.

Surface tows and recovery from depth-should be covered in OW *my opinion and NAUI agrees*, and certainly in AOW because that can happen to anyone *tired/cramps, etc*. You add rescue breaths, but most instructors don't actually know how to give efficient rescue breaths, and if you are boat diving you are likely going to actually slow the process of getting the diver to an AED/O2/CPR which makes the situation worse. I practice frequently enough to demonstrate at a high level, but if there is any risk that the breaths would slow me down in the water, I would kick like hell to the shore and get him on an MTV-100 or BVM with O2. We can't get college students with 3 MONTHS of practice, 2 sessions per week that are 2 hours long to efficiently tow while giving rescue breaths. Granted, only about 2 of those sessions are dedicated to towing, but it's still 4 hours of it with expected time for them to practice. How can anyone be so delusional to think that you can teach it in the days that most rescue courses give? More importantly, if you have to kick any distance, how many people are actually in good enough shape to do it? That's why we make them do it for half a mile to mimic swimming across a lake or coming up from the wrong side of a wreck or reef.

Panicked diver at surface etc. usually not actually covered in most courses because the instructors don't let any victims be truly active or they don't know how to be active so it's pretty much a waste of time. Hell most lifeguard courses don't actually teach with proper active victims.

IANTD covers a bunch of interesting skills for self-rescue that are useful that we also teach *DSO and Mount have been friends since the military, so shock of all shocks there*. Falling into water while fully clothed, drown proofing, breathing with a removed diaphragm to simulate a flooding reg *PADI would have a cow if you made a student do that*, 2 minute full freeflow breathing, 2 minute valve feathering.

Now, with most divers not diving in cold dark lakes and what not, and with most divers diving around with dive masters. The rescue course doesn't really bring a whole lot to the table that's truly "useful" to make you a better diver. If you regularly dive with instabuddies, especially in cold dark lakes/quarries etc. and don't dive with dive masters, then yeah, take rescue. If you are a warm water diver off of boats? You really aren't going to get a whole lot out of it. In a real world scenario the boat crew is going to take over anyway.

You may not like that answer, but it is what it is. It is not a course I teach if I can help it. If you have any desire to do any sort of leadership, you obviously need to take it. If you do any sort of diving without any sort of leadership or in remote areas, not only do you need to take it, but you HAVE to have all of the equipment. I.e. there is 0 point in taking O2 admin if you don't keep O2 kits with you. The diver is going to die if you take a diver up to the surface who doesn't have a pulse if you don't have an AED, end of discussion. The diver is probably going to die if you don't have O2 and they weren't breathing for any length of time. If you are going to take the course, and want an actual chance at saving someone, you need the stuff, and that is a fully stocked first aid kit, an AED, and a full O2 kit with BVM *and KNOW how to use it individually* or preferably an MTV-100.
If you are diving with an operation that has that stuff, they will be dealing with the surface portion anyway, so as long as you can get him to the surface and preferably to the boat/shore, that's all you're going to do anyway.


So I'll ask genuinely. Why do you think all divers should take it unless they fall into the future leadership category, or are willing to invest in the stuff to actually give someone a shot at making it out and are regularly diving away from any sort of operators?
Why should the OP take the course? If her dives are in the caribbean, it's all with dive ops meaning someone in the water, and qualified people on the surface. What benefit is there?

I will offer a more recent perspective to balance @Diver0001 's perspective. I am a recreational diver who took this class in July of 2016 so my experience is relatively recent. I was certified in April 2015. I will address each of your points below.
 
Surface tows: Most instructors not actually knowing how to give efficient rescue breaths does not make a course "a complete joke". That is based on the quality of the instructor and their training - another post, another day. I don't think that anything will be perfect given an emergency but knowing how to tow and provide rescue breaths and what is taught in that situation is and actually doing it is better than not knowing how to do it and not doing it.

Equipment: How is the course that is being taught not useful for divers because they don't have the equipment? What equipment are you referring to? The tools for rescue without getting into the water from a boat or by a pool are accessible to all divers - flotation devices, pool cleaning tools - whatever you can find to use and aid in a rescue. As for a barrier/mask - these are provided from PADI and I keep this in my kit whenever I go diving now. Oxygen - the boat will have it. But say you are on a beach...You can still provide CPR and call for help while someone either gets oxygen and an AED (lifeguard tower if there is one) or calls 911. You can still retrieve the person from the water while providing rescue breaths. You can still assist until paramedics get there. Not having the necessary equipment does not negate the fact that the average diver would still benefit from first aid and CPR knowledge here and how to bring the victim to shore or the surface appropriately.

Search and Recovery: The reality is we really only have a couple minutes for cells in our body to go without oxygen, particularly that of our brain. If there is a remote chance that there is a missing diver, any chance of expediting the finding of said diver if they are unconscious and taking in water will help the situation and if there are more knowledgeable people on site at the time who can assist, the chances of finding them are better. If we do find them, we were trained to do unresponsive diver rescue at depth. Body positioning, how to ascend, maintaining reg in mouth if it's still in there, or just going for the surface if it's not and focus on starting rescue breaths rather than retrieving the reg and spending more time at depth. Even if enough time has passed where survival rate has dwindled, you bet that I will still be out there trying to find my dive buddy until the professional SAR folks arrive. As morbid as it is, I'd still like a body and sitting there feeling helpless is not something that would help with my grief later on.

Panicked diver at surface: It's definitely covered in PADI. How to initiate contact, approach without becoming a victim yourself, and different methods to help without becoming a victim yourself. Each student got to watch the instructor do this a few times, got to do it themselves a few times (with different methods), and watch other students do it as well. We then did it again in the open ocean. We were told to be truly active and panicked - and had DMs be the victims to ensure there was a realness to it. It sounds like it's either the instructor or agency here that didn't cover this or offer a good representation to you for you to feel as though it's useful. In fact, I think this is probably a critical element here because if you can address a panicked diver at the surface successfully, either through conversation or a combination of conversation and physical contact, you can prevent a much more significant problem from occurring here - them dying or you also being a victim.

The last I checked, emergencies do not discriminate against cold water with crappy viz or warm water with amazing viz. Emergencies and unexpected events happen everywhere and anywhere. What you are suggesting is that if we are all boat diving in the Caribbean and there is a boat crew, we are all good because they will take care of everything. Sorry, but I disagree. I will not rely solely on others when I can be empowered myself. They will act as primary or supplemental help. Doing otherwise is just sticking my head in the sand. While I will not be carrying an O2 kit with me, the fact that I know how to use it means that I could help the boat crew if something happened or I can assist. What if there were more than 1 victim? It leaves the situation a bit more flexible and is better managed when more people are capable and knowledgeable in the matter. As you said, these boat people will support on the surface, but what about at depth? Are they going to be watching each of us on the boat like a hawk to be able to identify issues right away?

Seriously, this is probably one of the most ridiculous things I've read on Scubaboard. We should all not own fire extinguishers and not learn to use them or know about fire safety because the fire department is right across the street from us. We're covered.
 

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