lamont
Contributor
Diver Dennis:
Yeah, I'm thinking of worst case you're down at 100 fsw and your buddy goes OOA on you and then his inflator sticks on (don't think too hard about this hypothetical case) and you both shoot to the surface.
Could you do it?
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Yeah, I'm thinking of worst case you're down at 100 fsw and your buddy goes OOA on you and then his inflator sticks on (don't think too hard about this hypothetical case) and you both shoot to the surface.
lamont:
an OOA diver on your octo in a panic does drag you up very quickly, I've had them pressing the "up" button (inflator, why do instructors let students get away with thinking ofit as that?) full bore while on my octo at 100 ft., kicking up while I hold hold on for dear life with one hand and wrestle the inflator away (if possible...) and try to dump air from their BC with the other. Sometimes you manage to slow things down, others they pull you up quickly enough that you become positive as well and with everything going on you just can't stop it, all you can do is watch them to make sure they aren't holding their breath (and if they are punch them in the gut) and enjoy the ride up. Once on the surface I bite my cheeck HARD, then put a smile on my face and ask them if they are OK in a nice voice (after all they did pay and calling them all the names I thought of during the assent would just be bad for business)
This normally happens all of 4-5 mins into the dive when you would never expect them to run out of air that quickly (but they do!
)
piikki
Contributor
This "punch in the gut" seems to be a maneuver I will have to add to my practice regime
piikki:This "punch in the gut" seems to be a maneuver I will have to add to my practice regime
high up just under the ribs, it doesn't (nor should it be) hard, just enough to get them to breath out, once they do they don't hold their breath anymore.
Lmont and JeffG are proof on why you should never rip the reg out. They, as well as many others on this site have done the same thing including myself and are here talking about it.
The industry has pounded SLOW assents and Safety Stops so deep into peoples heads that some think if you miss one or the other you’re going to die but your not. You have better odds of being OK than FUBARED.
It all boils down to Risk VS Benefit. The more training and experience you have the more you can recognize it and decide what to do in any given situation.
A lot of people THINK they have been in serious rescue scenarios when in fact they were just dealing with a minor problem. It also goes the other way where people ARE in a real rescue situation and don’t or can’t recognize it. Not knowing you are in one can be deadly. You need to KNOW when and when not to go in and assist or try to assist.
This thing can be Monday morning or arm chair quarterbacked for ever but it boils down to knowing when and what to do at any given time.
I have seen some people that had a 15’ safety stop so ingrained in their heads that they insisted on doing one on EVERY dive. Even a 10’ dive needed a 15’ safety stop. We argued about this and I finally just gave up. DUH! This guy needed hand lotion poured over his hard head to try and soften it up.
Relax, there has been a very large safety margin built into diving. Granted there are people that will get bent or worse playing well within the limits. But the majority can get away with somewhat serious violations (by today’s standards) and come out just fine. I'm not saying to forget the safety guidelines but if you have to violate them in an emergency it doesn't mean your a gonner.
Another thing to remember is that not that many years ago the NORMAL assent rate was 60 fpm. Nobody had even heard about a safety stop and we’re still here thousand of dives later.
The bottom line is remembering that air, speed up or down is not an issue if you jump in to help someone and they have enough adrenalin pumping to now have control of you. Now who is the victim?
Leave the reg in, follow them up and stay as far away from them as you can. Then talk about it on the surface.
Gary D.
The industry has pounded SLOW assents and Safety Stops so deep into peoples heads that some think if you miss one or the other you’re going to die but your not. You have better odds of being OK than FUBARED.
It all boils down to Risk VS Benefit. The more training and experience you have the more you can recognize it and decide what to do in any given situation.
A lot of people THINK they have been in serious rescue scenarios when in fact they were just dealing with a minor problem. It also goes the other way where people ARE in a real rescue situation and don’t or can’t recognize it. Not knowing you are in one can be deadly. You need to KNOW when and when not to go in and assist or try to assist.
This thing can be Monday morning or arm chair quarterbacked for ever but it boils down to knowing when and what to do at any given time.
I have seen some people that had a 15’ safety stop so ingrained in their heads that they insisted on doing one on EVERY dive. Even a 10’ dive needed a 15’ safety stop. We argued about this and I finally just gave up. DUH! This guy needed hand lotion poured over his hard head to try and soften it up.
Relax, there has been a very large safety margin built into diving. Granted there are people that will get bent or worse playing well within the limits. But the majority can get away with somewhat serious violations (by today’s standards) and come out just fine. I'm not saying to forget the safety guidelines but if you have to violate them in an emergency it doesn't mean your a gonner.
Another thing to remember is that not that many years ago the NORMAL assent rate was 60 fpm. Nobody had even heard about a safety stop and we’re still here thousand of dives later.
The bottom line is remembering that air, speed up or down is not an issue if you jump in to help someone and they have enough adrenalin pumping to now have control of you. Now who is the victim?
Leave the reg in, follow them up and stay as far away from them as you can. Then talk about it on the surface.
Gary D.
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Finally a lot of good advice on the "buddy pulling you to the surface" scenario. As long as everyone is breathing (on most recreational dives), everybody gets to go home and lie about the incident.
Along those lines: The idea that "you should only help a distressed buddy if you are absolutely sure that providing assistance will not put you in some kind of danger"; would seem to ensure that most recreational divers will NOT help at all!
I have had to help divers on a number of occasions and each time, it has presented me with some level of increased risk; if buddies are not willing to accept some level of risk to assist eachother, then what safety advantage does a buddy provide?
Often, if a buddy can react immediately to the minor emergency, then the situation can be defused and things won't escalate. If I'm tangled in a net, I would hope that if I had a buddy that he would act quickly and carefully rather than stand there and try to determine if approaching a net MIGHT endanger him.
I like to dive solo and one of the primary reasons is that I would rather not make the moral commitment to endanger myself to help some weenie...
Along those lines: The idea that "you should only help a distressed buddy if you are absolutely sure that providing assistance will not put you in some kind of danger"; would seem to ensure that most recreational divers will NOT help at all!
I have had to help divers on a number of occasions and each time, it has presented me with some level of increased risk; if buddies are not willing to accept some level of risk to assist eachother, then what safety advantage does a buddy provide?
Often, if a buddy can react immediately to the minor emergency, then the situation can be defused and things won't escalate. If I'm tangled in a net, I would hope that if I had a buddy that he would act quickly and carefully rather than stand there and try to determine if approaching a net MIGHT endanger him.
I like to dive solo and one of the primary reasons is that I would rather not make the moral commitment to endanger myself to help some weenie...
piikki
Contributor
I wonder if it’s easier to rationalize helping someone shooting up to surface (perceived safety?) than follow someone to depths that one knows are beyond their comfort zone (or maybe something they never experienced) - and where one can assume becoming somewhat impaired? Dropping below 200ft where I have never been would certainly be different issue than being dragged to surface from rec depths to me - even though I never experienced either.
Diver Dennis
Contributor
So this is not true?
This was a post here on SB that no one corrected from a diver with over 200 dives.
I have to admit that I thought DCS was more of a problem. As I said, I've never had a runaway but I, and I'm sure a few others reading this, thought it was more of an issue in a rocket ascent. I learned something new today because I asked questions. Thanks.
This was a post here on SB that no one corrected from a diver with over 200 dives.
I have to admit that I thought DCS was more of a problem. As I said, I've never had a runaway but I, and I'm sure a few others reading this, thought it was more of an issue in a rocket ascent. I learned something new today because I asked questions. Thanks.
Just to back up Lamont and JeffG with some real data, I'll cite a specific case where there was a fairly substantial deco obligation - one of Sheck Exley's dives he tells about in Caverns Measureless to Man, which was to 300' for 10 minutes.
Here's the profile from a modern deco algorithm:
Dec to 200ft (2) Air 100ft/min descent.
Dec to 300ft (2) Air 120ft/min descent.
Level 300ft 7:10 (10) Air 2.12 ppO2, 300ft ead
Asc to 120ft (13) Air -60ft/min ascent.
Stop at 120ft 1:00 (14) Air 0.97 ppO2, 120ft ead
Stop at 110ft 2:00 (16) Air 0.91 ppO2, 110ft ead
Stop at 100ft 1:00 (17) Air 0.85 ppO2, 100ft ead
Stop at 90ft 1:00 (18) Air 0.78 ppO2, 90ft ead
Stop at 80ft 2:00 (20) Air 0.72 ppO2, 80ft ead
Stop at 70ft 2:00 (22) Air 0.65 ppO2, 70ft ead
Stop at 60ft 3:00 (25) Air 0.59 ppO2, 60ft ead
Stop at 50ft 3:00 (28) Air 0.53 ppO2, 50ft ead
Stop at 40ft 4:00 (32) Air 0.46 ppO2, 40ft ead
Stop at 30ft 6:00 (38) Air 0.40 ppO2, 30ft ead
Stop at 20ft 9:00 (47) Air 0.34 ppO2, 20ft ead
Stop at 10ft 13:00 (60) Air 0.27 ppO2, 10ft ead
Surface (60) Air -15ft/min ascent.
Sheck's actual profile was a rapid emergency ascent to the surface from 130' chasing his buddy, where after a few minutes they were able to descend to about 30' and use what gas they had for a "winging it" decompression, staying at 10' for a half hour longer than the bend-o-meters they were carrying said they shoud.
They were sure they would be bent, but they weren't!
To me that says I'd have to have a mighty heavy deco load before even considering not going all the way up with a buddy, and certainly no recreational profile would qualify.
Rick
Here's the profile from a modern deco algorithm:
Dec to 200ft (2) Air 100ft/min descent.
Dec to 300ft (2) Air 120ft/min descent.
Level 300ft 7:10 (10) Air 2.12 ppO2, 300ft ead
Asc to 120ft (13) Air -60ft/min ascent.
Stop at 120ft 1:00 (14) Air 0.97 ppO2, 120ft ead
Stop at 110ft 2:00 (16) Air 0.91 ppO2, 110ft ead
Stop at 100ft 1:00 (17) Air 0.85 ppO2, 100ft ead
Stop at 90ft 1:00 (18) Air 0.78 ppO2, 90ft ead
Stop at 80ft 2:00 (20) Air 0.72 ppO2, 80ft ead
Stop at 70ft 2:00 (22) Air 0.65 ppO2, 70ft ead
Stop at 60ft 3:00 (25) Air 0.59 ppO2, 60ft ead
Stop at 50ft 3:00 (28) Air 0.53 ppO2, 50ft ead
Stop at 40ft 4:00 (32) Air 0.46 ppO2, 40ft ead
Stop at 30ft 6:00 (38) Air 0.40 ppO2, 30ft ead
Stop at 20ft 9:00 (47) Air 0.34 ppO2, 20ft ead
Stop at 10ft 13:00 (60) Air 0.27 ppO2, 10ft ead
Surface (60) Air -15ft/min ascent.
Sheck's actual profile was a rapid emergency ascent to the surface from 130' chasing his buddy, where after a few minutes they were able to descend to about 30' and use what gas they had for a "winging it" decompression, staying at 10' for a half hour longer than the bend-o-meters they were carrying said they shoud.
They were sure they would be bent, but they weren't!
To me that says I'd have to have a mighty heavy deco load before even considering not going all the way up with a buddy, and certainly no recreational profile would qualify.
Rick
FredT
Guest
If there is no option to my death in a vain attempt to save anothers life, that other diver is toast. I'll recover the body next dive if possible. If I have a chance to save the fool without dying myself I'll do all I can to get them up.
I've seen "the eyes" several times, and all reached the surface breathing. This included the very drunk individual we pulled out of a station wagon at about 110' after he drove off the top edge of a submerged cliff. We went down expecting to pull a body and tie a line on the wreck, instead we got a live'un who did NOT want to stop to decompress. 4 of us held him while we were buddy breathing 'cause he WASN"T giving up the reg he had.
I've had to do about a 120' deep bounce from where I was down Santa Rosa Wall to pull the over weighted beginner diver up from over 200' down as he drifted "along" the wall. It pretty well screwed my dive as we spent the rest of the drift at 20' off gassing while I growled at him.
There have been other dicy moments spearfishing on the rigs where some assistance to a buddy was required to get him untied from the structure or disentangled, and a time or two where I was the buddy lashed to the rig....
In all cases it was a case of do what needed to be done, and to do it NOW before the situation got a lot worse and out of control.
FT
I've seen "the eyes" several times, and all reached the surface breathing. This included the very drunk individual we pulled out of a station wagon at about 110' after he drove off the top edge of a submerged cliff. We went down expecting to pull a body and tie a line on the wreck, instead we got a live'un who did NOT want to stop to decompress. 4 of us held him while we were buddy breathing 'cause he WASN"T giving up the reg he had.
I've had to do about a 120' deep bounce from where I was down Santa Rosa Wall to pull the over weighted beginner diver up from over 200' down as he drifted "along" the wall. It pretty well screwed my dive as we spent the rest of the drift at 20' off gassing while I growled at him.
There have been other dicy moments spearfishing on the rigs where some assistance to a buddy was required to get him untied from the structure or disentangled, and a time or two where I was the buddy lashed to the rig....
In all cases it was a case of do what needed to be done, and to do it NOW before the situation got a lot worse and out of control.
FT
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