Creation vs. Evolution

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After a little search here is a snippet of the theologians answer to the Trinity question. Forgive the length. This is an argument that has been in contention for nearly 2000 years.

"We can conclude without much difficulty that the concept of the Trinity did not come from Judaism. Nor did Jesus speak of a trinity. The message of Jesus was of the coming kingdom; it was a message of love and forgiveness. As for his relationship with the Father, Jesus said, ‘... I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me’,{# Joh 5:30} and in another place ‘my doctrine is not mine, but His that sent me’;{# Joh 7:16} and his words ‘my Father is greater than I’ {#Joh 14:28} leave no doubt as to their relationship.



The word ‘trinity’ was not coined until Tertullian, more than 100 years after Christ’s death, and the key words (meaning substance) from the Nicene debate, homousis and ousis, are not biblical, but from Stoic thought. Nowhere in the Bible is the Trinity mentioned. According to Pelikan, ‘One of the most widely accepted conclusions of the 19th century history of dogma was the thesis that the dogma of the Trinity was not an explicit doctrine of the New Testament, still less of the Old Testament, but had evolved from New Testament times to the 4th century. (Historical Theology 134)



If the Trinity did not originate with the Bible, where did it come from? To find the origins of the Trinity in Christianity, we need to take a look at the circumstances in which early Christians found themselves.



Even the Church of the Apostles’ day was far from unified. The Apostle Paul wrote to the Thessalonians that ‘the mystery of iniquity doth already work’.{# 2Th 2:7} Throughout his book Orthodoxy and Heresy in Earliest Christianity, the German New Testament scholar, lexicographer, and early Church historian, Walter Bauer, effectively proves that many early Christians were influenced by gnosticism. He believes it possible that certain ‘[heresies recorded by early Christian Fathers] originally had not been such at all, but, at least here and there...were simply ‘Christianity”(xxii). Bauer goes even further, as he proves that early Christians in Edessa appear to have been followers of the Marcion’s beliefs (considered heretical today), with ‘orthodox’ views being so strongly in the minority that ‘Christian’ referred to one with Marcion’s beliefs, and ‘Palutian’ to one with ‘orthodox’ (by today’s standards) beliefs (21-38). In his work The Greek Fathers, James Marshall Campbell, a Greek professor, bears out the great fear of gnosticism prevalent in the early church.



With Gnosticism being so predominant in this early period, it behooves one to learn what they believed, for many early church writings were defenses against gnosticism. Gnosticism borrowed much of its philosophy and religion from Mithraism, oriental mysticism, astrology, magic, and Plato. It considered matter to be evil and in opposition to Deity, relied heavily on visions, and sought salvation through knowledge. The late Professor Arthur Cushman McGiffert interprets some of the early Christian fathers as believing the Gnosticism to be ‘identical to [sic] all intents and purposes with Greek polytheism’ (50). Gnosticism had a mixed influence on the early Christian writers: like the pendulum on a clock, some were influenced by Gnostic thought, while others swung to the opposite extreme.



Knowledge was also the desire of the Greek philosophers. We owe a lot to these sages of old. J. N. D. Kelly, lecturer and principal at St. Edward Hall, Oxford University, states that ‘[the concepts of philosophy] provided thinkers... with an intellectual framework for expressing their ideas’ (9) to the extent that it became the ‘deeper religion of most intelligent people’ (9). The eminent theologian Adolf Harnack considered Greek philosophy and culture to be factors in the formation of the ‘ecclesiastical mode of thought’ (1: 127). According to McGiffert, the concepts of philosophy prevalent during the time of the early church were Stoicism, which was ‘ethical in its interests and monistic in its ontology’ and Platonism, which was ‘dualistic and predominately religious’ (46).



That these philosophies affected Christianity is a historical fact. What did these philosophers teach about God? In Plato’s Timeus, ‘The Supreme Reality appears in the trinitarian form of the Good, the Intelligence, and the World-Soul’ (qtd. in Laing 129). Laing attributes elaborate trinitarian theories to the Neoplatonists, and considers Neoplatonic ideas as ‘one of the operative factors in the development of Christian theology’ (129).



Is this positive proof that the Christian Trinity descended from Greek philosophy? No. However, in a comparison between the church of the third century and that of 150-200 years before, the noted German theologian, Adolf Harnack, finds ‘few Jewish, but many Greco-Roman features, and... the philosophic spirit of the Greeks’ (1: 45). In addition, Durant ties in philosophy with Christianity when he states that the second century Alexandrian Church, from which both Clement and Origen came, ‘wedded Christianity to Greek philosophy’ (Caesar 613); and finally, Durant writes of the famed pagan philosopher, Plotinus, that ‘Christianity accepted nearly every line of him...’ (Caesar 611).



World conditions were hardly conducive to the foundation of a new and different religion. Pagan gods were still the gods of the state, and the Roman government was very superstitious. All calamities were considered the displeasure of the gods. When the dissolute Roman government began to crumble, it was not seen as a result of corruption within, but as the anger of the gods; and thus there were strong persecutions against Christians to placate these gods.



In such a time was Christianity born. On one side were persecutions; on the other the seduction of philosophy. To remain faithful to the belief of Jesus Christ meant hardship and ridicule. It was only for the simple poor and the rich in faith. It was a hard time to convert to Christianity from the relatively safer paganism. In the desire to grow, the Church compromised truth, which resulted in confusion as pagans became Christians and intermingled beliefs and traditions. In his Emergence of Catholic Tradition, Pelikan discusses the conflict in the Church after AD 70 and the decline of Judaic influence within Christianity. As more and more pagans came into Christianity, they found the Judaic influence offensive. Some even went so far as to reject the Old Testament (13-14).



With this background, the growth and evolution of the Trinity can be clearly seen. As previously stated, the Bible does not mention the Trinity. Harnack affirms that the early church view of Jesus was as Messiah, and after his resurrection he was ‘raised to the right hand of God’ but not considered as God (1: 78). Bernard Lonergan, a Roman Catholic priest and Bible scholar, concurs that the educated Christians of the early centuries believed in a single, supreme God (119). As for the holy Spirit, McGiffert tells us that early Christians considered the holy Spirit ‘not as an individual being or person but simply as the divine power working in the world and particularly in the church’ (111). Durant summarizes early Christianity thus: ‘In Christ and Peter, Christianity was Jewish; in Paul it became half Greek; in Catholicism it became half Roman’ (Caesar 579).



As the apostles died, various writers undertook the task of defending Christianity against the persecutions of the pagans. The writers of these ‘Apologies’ are known to us now as the ‘Apologists’. Pelikan states that ‘it was at least partly in response to pagan criticism of the stories in the Bible that the Christian apologists... took over and adapted the methods and even vocabulary of pagan allegorism’ (Emergence 30). Campbell agrees when he states that ‘the Apologists borrowed heavily, and at times inappropriately, from the pagan resources at hand’ (23). They began the ‘process of accommodation’ between Christianity and common philosophy, and used reason to ‘justify Christianity to the pagan world’ (22-23).



The most famous of these Apologists was Justin Martyr (c.107-166). He was born a pagan, became a pagan philosopher, then a Christian. He believed that Christianity and Greek philosophy were related. As for the Trinity, McGiffert asserts, ‘Justin insisted that Christ came from God; he did not identify him with God’ (107). Justin’s God was ‘a transcendent being, who could not possibly come into contact with the world of men and things’ (107).



Not only was the Church divided by Gnosticism, enticed by philosophy, and set upon by paganism, but there was a geographic division as well. The East (centered in Alexandria) and the West (centered in Rome) grew along two different lines. Kelly shows how the East was intellectually adventurous and speculative (4), a reflection of the surrounding Greek culture. The theological development of the East is best represented in Clement and Origen.



Clement of Alexandria (c.150-220) was from the ‘Catechetical School’ of Alexandria. His views were influenced by Gnosticism (Bauer 56-57), and McGiffert affirms, ‘Clement insists that philosophy came from God and was given to the Greeks as a schoolmaster to bring them to Christ as the law was a schoolmaster for the Hebrews’ (183). McGiffert further states that Clement considered ‘God the Father revealed in the Old Testament’ separate and distinct from the ‘Son of God incarnate in Christ,’ with whom he identified the Logos (206). Campbell summarizes that ‘[with Clement the] philosophic spirit enters frankly into the service of Christian doctrine, and with it begins... the theological science of the future’ (36). However, it was his student, Origen, who ‘achieved the union of Greek philosophy and Christianity’ (39).



Origen (c.185-253) is considered by Campbell to be the ‘founder of theology’ (41), the greatest scholar of the early church and the greatest theologian of the East (38). Durant adds that ‘with [Origen] Christianity ceased to be only a comforting faith; it became a full-fledged philosophy, buttressed with scripture but proudly resting on reason’ (Caesar 615). Origen was a brilliant man. At 18 he succeeded Clement as president of the Alexandrian school. Over 800 titles were attributed to him by Jerome. He traveled extensively and started a new school in Cesarea.



In Origen we find an important link in the changing view of God. According to Pelikan’s Historical Theology, Origen was the ‘teacher of such orthodox stalwarts as the Cappadocian Fathers’ (22) but also the ‘teacher of Arius’ (22) and the ‘originator of many heresies’ (22). Centuries after his death, he was condemned by councils at least five times; however, both Athanasius and Eusebius had great respect for him.



As he tried to reckon the ‘incomprehensible God’ with both Stoic and Platonic philosophy, Origen presented views that could support both sides of the Trinity argument. He believed the Father and Son were separate ‘in respect of hypostasis’ (substance), but ‘one by harmony and concord and identity of will’ (qtd. in Lonergan 56). He claimed the Son was the image of God.



In the way in which, according to the bible story, we say that Seth is the image of his father, Adam. For thus it is written: ‘And Adam begot Seth according to his own image and likeness.’ Image, in this sense, implies that the Father and the Son have the same nature and substance. (qtd. in Lonergan 58)



He also maintained that there was a difference between the God and God when he said ‘_ß _&hibar; 2, __is indeed the God [God himself].... Whatever else, other than him who is called _ß _&hibar; 2, __, is also God, is deified by participation, by sharing in his divinity, and is more properly to be called not the God but simply God’ (qtd. in Lonergan 61).



As Greek influence and Gnosticism became introduced into the Eastern church, it became more mystical and philosophical. The simple doctrines that Jesus taught to the uneducated gave way to the complex and sophisticated arguments of Origen."
 
You should be kinder Thal. There is a difference between a Fairy Tale and Mythology after all. I am hoping all here understand this.
'fraid I don't. What is the difference? The military or economic victory of one culture over another.

And take my comment in it's context. ce4jesus said:
If the Bible doesn't stand as God's inerrant word then where does that leave Christianity?
To which I replied:
What? We're supposed to put up with this crap to protect your ability to pretend that there is some sort of rational basis for your belief in fairy tales? Not a chance.
Perhaps something in the line of, "In the mythology section of the library, neatly filed between Charbdis and Circie." would have been more PC?
The Bible is the "Inspired word of God" and this we know from simple logic. God never wrote a single word we know of. All the words in the book were written by men. Argued over by men to determine whether they were true. Edited and assembled by men. Even written or printed by men.
Since it is impossible to prove a negative I must ask you to produce a just a single piece of positive evidence to corroborate that statement. If there is not god how something be "inspired" by god. Sorry, but since I find the concept of the existence of god on a probability and literary level somewhere below many fairytales it kind of hard to make the even more bizarre jump to the "inspired word of god." I'm no being unkind, just realistic. Why do you find it unkind for me to consider your god a fairy tale? I find it unkind of you to suggest that there is something lacking in me if I do not line up behind some water-depleted bronze age mythos.

Even with the words of Jesus there are many questions. The actual words were not written down until approximately 60 years after his passing. If anyone were to read these quotes/snippets that are the closest to his lifetime then you would defiantly come to the conclusion that he was a traditional thinking Hebrew from his words.
Asked and answered, there is no evidence that passes conventionally accepted historical research methods that suggests that there are any "words of Jesus."

The biggest problem with the modern fundamentalist church it is locked into the words of the bible. These ministers preach it with little or no training in the meanings of the words or the historical contexts. There is no rituals left in the church and, they call it that old time religion - what a load of c**p. It is all new age stuff. Even the concept of the rapture is new age. It came from a Christian cult that developed in the mid 1800's and the concept of the rapture was annotated into the bible for the first time around 1909. It is never mentioned in traditional texts!
I think you can say the same thing about virtually everything in the Bible just vary the text, date and place.


There is so much stuff I learned when growing up that were false teachings. I spent 30 years relearning it and studying now I have more questions than answers. Don't be asking me for answers - the answer will be in the form of a question... :11:
A lifetime of study has led me, also, to more questions, the difference is that I also have many more sensible answers than when I started.

Do I believe in evolution? Of course... It is the most important thing to the survival of any life form.

Do I believe in Creative Design? Just more New Age C**P!:shakehead:

Do I believe in the Creation? Of course I do... I will just not explain the interpretation! That is for each individual to figure out!

I could write pages on this stuff and the hows, whys, and whens. It is of no consequence after all. In the end we make our own choices and have to live and die with them. The most important question is can we forgive ourselves?
I glad that there's some common ground. What evidence (other than the inability to come up with an alternative) do you have for creation? And, what on earth do you need to be forgiven for?

Has anyone else here ever held someone in their arms while they passed away peacefully? and known that that was all they ever really wanted. Someone to show the care and love they needed at that moment...
I held loved ones in that situation as well as situations were they fought for every last breath. Religion or belief had nothing to do with it.[/quote]
 
No, it does not assume that. It assumes that there was an ancestor before there was a pouch that had a simpler structure - a skin fold or "pit". This ancestor would then have evolved into the two forms we see today - one group with forward-facing pouches, one with backwards-facing pouches.
So now we're back to talking "leaps" in evolution and not small changes.


The lie would be in creating something to appear as it is not. Say 14 billion years old verses 6000
...

So I create an ecosystem to my liking, write a book about it only to have the created organisms question the book and the way I did it. Again, God created it the way he wanted to without needing your approval. He left you a manual on it. You decided you didn't believe the manual and wanted empirical evidence. "God chose the foolish things of the world to confound the wise"

Your assumption would be wrong. That the vast majority of Christians belong to faiths which explicitly support evolution is a matter of public record. Catholics alone make for a majority, but add into that the Church of England, Anglicans, and a whole plethora of protestant off-shoots, and you've got the vast majority of Christians.

When you get down to it, old-testament style creationism and biblical literalism are rare things in the Christian world - limited to the US, a few parts of Canada, and the odd little enclave elsewhere in the world.

As far as I know the Catholic Church has yet to cannonize evolution into its teachings. Moreover, the church really doesn't have an official stand other than to say the both evolution and the teachings of the church are not incompatible. There are essentials to being a called a catholic as there are essential beliefs in any religious organization. They are not the monolithic group you make them out to be. The vast majority of Christians believe in theistic evolution and/or the biblical account regardless of what the Pope of the day says in a speech.

The majority of Christians take parts of the bible to be largely allegorical, and yet their churches seem to be doing just fine. Guess they don't see the issue. Even literalists like yourself pick and choose the parts you take as inerrant - the old testament sets the ground rules for slavery, and in the new testament Jesus endorses slavery through his commands to slaves to respect their masters. And yet I cannot think of a single literalistic church which promotes a return to slavery. And yet, slavery is spelled out in black and white, by god. So why aren't you treating that as his inerrant word?

I guess you're the official authority on what the majority of Christians believe these days. You're more diverse than I thought. Slavery in the day of Christ was more often than naught indentured servatude. I can argue we're slaves to our jobs today. Jesus in that passage was far from endorsing slavery and was simply acknowledging that it existed and moreover, how a christian slave should behave. But as an authority on Christianity you would've known that. But since you brought up slavery, evolution by definition, would require racial divides and therefore racial inequity. This would lead to one race enslaving another. Adolf Hitler anyone?

Brontosaurus hardly threw the whole field into question. If anything, it was a valuable lesson in comparative physiology.
I disagree. When one scientist perpetrates a fraud for fame and fortune which is endorsed by the scientific community and not corrected, then it opens any discovery of this nature to more scutiny.

And yet so readily dismiss science. Strange though, that the meat of your argument is, in essence, if the bible has factual errors your faith becomes meaningless.

Doesn't exactly make for a strong foundation.

I don't dismiss science. I simply submit it to old school type of reasoning and common sense. I see science today being agenda driven and you only need to look at the whole global warming debate as an example. As for faith, if the Bible doesn't stand up to the same type of scrutiny, then following it is useless.
 
So now we're back to talking "leaps" in evoluti and not small changes.
in this case "size" does not matter.

So I create an ecosystem to my liking, write a book about it only to have the created organisms question the book and the way I did it. Again, God created it the way he wanted to without needing your approval. He left you a manual on it. You decided you didn't believe the manual and wanted empirical evidence. "God chose the foolish things of the world to confound the wise"
Got a single piece of empirical evidence to support that claim? Oh, BTW, we're still waiting for a single example of where science and church dogma came into conflict and church dogma turned out to be correct. You couldn't come up with one and now you've had several weeks to scour the internet and several Sundays to ask the fools who lead your sect for one and still ... no go. I think it reasonable, at this stage, to declare victory for rational though over the forces of ignorance.

As far as I know the Catholic Church has yet to cannonize evolution into its teachings. Moreover, the church really doesn't have an official stand other than to say the both evolution and the teachings of the church are not incompatible. There are essentials to being a called a catholic as there are essential beliefs in any religious organization. They are not the monolithic group you make them out to be. The vast majority of Christians believe in theistic evolution and/or the biblical account regardless of what the Pope of the day says in a speech.
That should be "Catholic" with a capital "C."


I guess you're the official authority on what the majority of Christians believe these days. You're more diverse than I thought. Slavery in the day of Christ was more often than naught indentured servatude. I can argue we're slaves to our jobs today. Jesus in that passage was far from endorsing slavery and was simply acknowledging that it existed and moreover, how a christian slave should behave. But as an authority on Christianity you would've known that. But since you brought up slavery, evolution by definition, would require racial divides and therefore racial inequity. This would lead to one race enslaving another. Adolf Hitler anyone?
You jump to conclusions about evolution that have no basis in theory or in fact. With such random thought process it is no wonder you have settled on such a bizarre suite of beliefs.

I disagree. When one scientist perpetrates a fraud for fame and fortune which is endorsed by the scientific community and not corrected, then it opens any discovery of this nature to more scutiny.
Disagree all you want, all we need do is consider the source of the disagreement.

I don't dismiss science. I simply submit it to old school type of reasoning and common sense. I see science today being agenda driven and you only need to look at the whole global warming debate as an example. As for faith, if the Bible doesn't stand up to the same type of scrutiny, then following it is useless.
You understand nothing about science, you demonstrate that over and over and over again. But your conclusion concerning faith and the Bible is, oddly, right on the money and quite correct, flowing it is, per se, completely useless (which is not to say that there are not good things rather randomly scattered though the Bible with completely atrocious ones.)
 
As for faith, if the Bible doesn't stand up to the same type of scrutiny, then following it is useless.

Why? Is your faith in Jesus or in a bunch of greek scraps compiled by church bureaucrats?

Do errors in Chronicles vs Kings make the wisdom of proverbs any less true?
 
Yeah, but it's useless since the golden parachute of heaven is no longer there. They have to face the reality that they are no more special than anyone else, and are just part of the circle of life. Hakkuna matata all.
Hamlet: A man may fish with the worm that hath eat of a king, and eat of the fish that hath fed of that worm.
Claudius: What dost thou mean by this?
Hamlet: Nothing but to show you how a king may go a progress through the guts of a beggar.
Claudius: Where is Polonius?
Hamlet: In heaven; send thither to see. If your messenger find him not there, seek him i' the other place yourself. But, indeed, if you find him not within this month, you shall nose him as you go up the stairs into the lobby.​
 
Except that E. coli already have the ability to utilize citrate when oxygen levels are low. There is a citrate transporter

Actually, its a citrate/succinate antiporter, which is an important distinction that we'll get into in a minute.

that allows citrate to be taken into the cell an used. In high levels of oxygen the transporter either does not work or is not produced.

Actually, that is not the case. You need energy to transport things across membranes. This can come from cellular energy sources (ATP), or from chemical or electrical gradients. In the case of the Cit antiporter, the power comes from succinate generated via anerobic fermentation in the e coli. The succinate builds upto high concentrations in the cytoplasm, and is then driven through the antiporter by the concentration gradient. The outward movement of succinate out through the Cit+, provides the power that Cit+ then uses to import citrate.

This system does not work when oxygen is present, as under aerobic conditions e coli completely reduce succinate to CO2 and water. So the transporter is there, and works just fine. It just doesn't have any fuel.

So the idea that Lenski's experiment showed anything novel being produced is an exaggeration.

If anything, its a huge understatement. In order for this system to work one of several large things would have had to happen:


  1. Evolution of the Cit antiporter to use another source of energy to pump citrate.
  2. Evolution of the Cit transporter to a channel (i.e. would allow passive transfer of citrate).
  3. Another transporter has evolved to move citrate, independent of the Cit transporter.
  4. Alternative processing of succinate which somehow bypasses the Krebs cycle.

Any of the above amount to a large change in biochemical function, as each and every one requires that you change the specificity AND mode of action of an enzyme.

Also, they lost the ability to catabolize ribose, some lost the ability to repair DNA.

No, they did not. The experiment which lead to these bacteria also lead to other strains with those characteristics. The citrate-utilizing strain arose independently of those other mutations, and both metabolizes ribose and repairs DNA normally.

Sniegowski PD, Gerrish PJ, Lenski RE (1997) Evolution of high mutation rates in experimental populations of Escherichia coli. Nature 387:703–705.

Blount ZD, Borland CZ, Lenski RE. Historical contingency and the evolution of a key innovation in an experimental population of Escherichia coli. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2008 Jun 10;105(23):7899-906. Epub 2008 Jun 4.

In fact, figure 4 of the paper clearly shows that the mutation rate of the Cit+ bacteria have a lower-then-normal mutation rate. In their words:

"With no more than three mutations among the 8.4 X 1012 cells tested here and in the third replay experiment, the upper bound on the ancestral mutation rate to Cit is 3.6 x 1013 per cell per generation (Fig.4). To the best of our knowledge, this value is the lowest upper bound ever reported for a mutation rate that has been experimentally measured. It is also probably far too high because no mutations were actually observed for the ancestor, nor were any found among another 9.0 X 1012 cells of 60 clones sampled through 15,000 generations; and because some cell turnover and other DNA activity probably occurred during the many days that plates were incubated."

Page 7903, left column.
Blount ZD, Borland CZ, Lenski RE. Historical contingency and the evolution of a key innovation in an experimental population of Escherichia coli. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2008 Jun 10;105(23):7899-906. Epub 2008 Jun 4.

And I notice that you chose to ignore their several reports of strains with hugely increased fitness. For example:

Lenski RE, Rose MR, Simpson SC, Tadler SC (1991) Long-term experimental evolution in Escherichia coli. I. Adaptation and divergence during 2,000 generations. Am Nat 138:1315–1341.

Cooper VS, Lenski RE (2000) The population genetics of ecological specialization in evolving E. coli populations. Nature 407:736–739.

Lenski RE (2004) Phenotypic and genomic evolution during a 20,000-generation experiment with the bacterium Escherichia coli. Plant Breed Rev 24:225–265.

Lenski RE, Travisano M (1994) Dynamics of adaptation and diversification: A 10,000-generation experiment with bacterial populations. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 91:6808–6814.

Again, the benefit of citrate usage has come at a cost

No, actually it hasn't. Maybe you should read the article before you comment on it. The strain which was isolated was isolated because it was so much more fit, compared to the other strains in the mixed culture, that it took over the culture. Which, in bio-speak, means it was more fit.

and if placed back in natural environments, these bacteria get out competed.

You have no evidence that is the case. As for supposition, based on the evidence we have at hand, the actual answer is they may be more fit, depending on the environment.

One common theme with e coli that goes from non-pathogenic to pathogenic is the gain of citrate metabolism under aerobic conditions. Usually this is due to horizontal gene transfer from another species (Klebsiella sp. for example). Meaning, if these bacteria were to enter the natural environment of our gut (which is where they were isolated from initially) they would stand a good chance of out competing their progenitor strain, as they would be able to utilize citrate.

More importantly, you above statement clearly shows that you've failed to understand the basic premise of what was shown. What has been shown is that in response to a new environment, e coli evolved a novel biochemical function which increased its fitness in that new environment. This is exactly what the TOE predicts should happen, meaning this study is yet more proof that the TOE is correct.

You're also showing a fundamental misunderstanding of what the TOE states. To evolve does not require that you keep old functionality, or maintain fitness for old environments. All that has to happen for evolution to progress is that you maintain fitness in response to a changing environment. Its pretty obvious - we don't breath water anymore, despite having our origins in the sea. Under your rational, we haven't evolved, as we are less fit in the ocean environment than the lobe-finned fish we evolved from.

Nor does evolution dictate that all advances must be beneficial; non-advantageous traits can form - even replace beneficial ones. Selection isn't all-powerful, and drift is a bitch...

Bryan
 
I was once a devout literalist and fundamentalist. I battled with this same question and tortured over it, because the Bible is in fact errant.

When I found the errors in the Bible, at first I felt betrayed. How did all of the pastors and theologians who preach inerrancy doctrine get it wrong? They are the experts after all.

Who was the father of Joseph?
Matt 1:16 says, "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus..."
Luke 3:23 says "And Jesus...the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli"
Like I stated earlier, we could start another 600 post thread on this topic. The answer is there for someone seeking an answer and not just trying to prove the Bible to be in error. Matthew is tracing Jesus male lineage to prove he is the legitimate Christ spoken of in the old testament. Luke, traces Jesus's physical lineage which lists Mary's Father, Heli, as his father. This isn't problematic because if Heli died and if he had no living sons, it would be customary to preserve his name this way. Furthermore, according to Jewish Law, Joseph became the "son" of Heli upon his marriage to Mary.

There are plenty of contradictions in Kings/Samuel/Chronicles. Ultimately, I determined that my faith didn't hinge on the letter of the word. I decided the the underlying truth of the Bible was what was important and not the accuracy of an english translation of a copy of copy of copy of a compilation of old texts. This opened a new world for me as a believer and allowed me to reconcile scholarly learning about the Bible without burying my head in the sand like before.

My faith grew stronger for giving up Biblical inerrancy as that viewpoint only lives in denial of the very real and plain errors in the Bible. Like I said, I suffered some resentment towards the "men of god" who should have known errancy if they were as qualified as they made out. I grew suspicious of fundamentalist teachers with Bible degrees. How can you study the bible in college for 4 years and miss the glaring errors? How come their teachers didn't point it out?

A large part of the fundamentalist church networks and colleges are engaged in deception and denial because they have made inerrancy a cornerstone of their faith which cannot be pulled out without the building falling down. The thing that doesn't make sense to me though is that faith can grow stronger without drinking the inerrancy koolaid. They are propagating a myth and a false doctrine because they can't admit they were wrong.

I disagree to somewhat. It can be argued that Abraham had faith without a Bible to discuss. However, The rules changed with the birth of Christ. Suffice it to say I'm comfortable with the inerrancy of scripture. Yes there are difficulties...and many of them just like the one you pointed out, some even more difficult. However, just like the answer I gave, there are suitable explanations for them. As you remember, scripture is God-inspired. But that doesn't mean the prose and style of the writer doesn't come through. Therefore, these apparent discrepancies arise.
BTW - oddly enough it was the discovery that Brontosaurus (my favorite dinoaur growing up) was a deceitful lie by a scientist seeking glory that made me so skeptical of science as a whole. Global warming and the political correctness that surround it today only confirm that suspicion. This thread furthers that distrust. A young scientist poses a good question only to be tarred and feathered by his supposed colleagues. One even questioning his intelligence. This kind of black-balling was usually reserved for cults. But that's exactly what science today has become....a cult. Einstein stood on Newton's shoulders but had the audacity to challenge earlier models as false. A part of me wonders if he wouldn't have been labeled a kook today.
 
So now we're back to talking "leaps" in evolution and not small changes.

How did you come up with that idea? You have a proto-marsupial, (which lived over 125 million years ago, based on fossils from china). This pre-marsupial did not have a pouch, and instead had a simpler structure. Over the intervening millions of years this primitive system diverged, giving rise to the current 2 types of pouch - forward verses rearward facing. Even assuming a very long generation time of 10 years, that is still far more than enough time for gradual change to lead to both forms of pouch.

So I create an ecosystem to my liking, write a book about it only to have the created organisms question the book and the way I did it. Again, God created it the way he wanted to without needing your approval. He left you a manual on it. You decided you didn't believe the manual and wanted empirical evidence. "God chose the foolish things of the world to confound the wise"

Considering that the book has a tendency to be wrong, we're right to question it. Under your rational we should stop believing in heliocentrism, as the bible pretty clearly lays out that we live in a geocentric universe...

As far as I know the Catholic Church has yet to cannonize evolution into its teachings. Moreover, the church really doesn't have an official stand other than to say the both evolution and the teachings of the church are not incompatible.

I never once claimed that they taught it, rather that they accepted it. As for the second part, you are completely wrong.

Pius the XII said it first:
"there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation"
Humani Generis (1950)


JP the II expanded this:

"Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical, some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than an hypothesis.* In fact it is remarkable that this theory has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers, following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines. The convergence in the results of these independent studies—which was neither planned nor sought—constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory"
MESSAGE TO THE PONTIFICAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES:
ON EVOLUTION
, October 22, 1996, John Paul II


There are essentials to being a called a catholic as there are essential beliefs in any religious organization. They are not the monolithic group you make them out to be.

That's a humorous observation on your part. And completely in opposition to my experience growing up . . . as a catholic.

The vast majority of Christians believe in theistic evolution and/or the biblical account regardless of what the Pope of the day says in a speech.

Only in the US, the rest of the developed world is the exact, polar opposite:
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/pdf/2005-11.pdf

For a fairly extensive listing of US churches who believe in evolution, see the Clergy Letter Project.

I guess you're the official authority on what the majority of Christians believe these days.

I have the statistics to support my claim. All you have is your own assumptions, which don't stand up to even the most modest of investigation.

Slavery in the day of Christ was more often than naught indentured servatude.

Indentured servitude is considered to be slavery, and is explicitly banned by several international treaties. Slavery is slavery, regardless of what euphanism you use. Call 'em slaves, indentured servants, or gigglewots - at the end of the day they are individuals forced to work, and are deprived of their freedoms.

And yet again, this assumption of yours doesn't even hold upto the most basic scrutiny. Throughout roman rule (i.e. Jesus's time), slavery was extremely common - people could be sold into slavery, individuals captured in war became slaves, and so forth. Slavery remained common long after Jesus's death - it existed throughout medieval Europe and the medieval middle east, right through until the beginnings of industrialization.

I can argue we're slaves to our jobs today.

Far from. The law doesn't prevent us from leaving our work. If we leave, we are not forced to return. We are not deprived of our basic rights when we work (in fact, a multitude of laws protect our rights in the workplace). We even have the option of not working, although a life in mom&pop's basement, or on the street, doesn't appeal to many...

Jesus in that passage was far from endorsing slavery and was simply acknowledging that it existed and moreover, how a christian slave should behave.

Sure, whatever you say. Oh wait, Ephesians 6:5-8:

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favorwhen their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free."

Emphasis added by myself.

But since you brought up slavery, evolution by definition, would require racial divides and therefore racial inequity. This would lead to one race enslaving another. Adolf Hitler anyone?

This old egg again, you'd think creationists would have learned by now. Firstly, from a genetic standpoint, races do not exist. There is simply too much gene flow for that. It is not possible to determine a persons race on the basis of the DNA - period.

Secondly, there is no quantifiable differences in intelligence, strength, disease resistance, etc among the human "races"; no real inequities, aside from the ones which arose from human ignorance and superstition.

As for Hitlers eugenics plan, that represents a prime example of ignorance of evolution. He may have cloaked his idea in the name of evolution, but 70 year earlier, in Darwins time, it was already understood that variation, not "perfection", is what creates a strong species.

I disagree. When one scientist perpetrates a fraud for fame and fortune which is endorsed by the scientific community and not corrected, then it opens any discovery of this nature to more scutiny.

Brontosaurus was corrected. Questions were actually raised about it two years before the initial results were ever released by Elmer Riggs, 1903 edition of Geological Series of the Field Columbian Museum. And that was in a period of time where science was preformed by a small number of people from the "elite" part of society.

Which just goes to show why science is to be trusted over faith - it has a self-correcting nature. Today, with millions of people involved in research (as compared to a few thousand in the brontosaurus days) errors and lies don't last long. Your options are simple - own up (and look good), or let someone call you on it (and quite possible loose your job, funds, and life's work).

Just as an example of how well this works in the modern world, Hwang Woo-Suk's forgeries were identified a few months after they were published.

I don't dismiss science. I simply submit it to old school type of reasoning and common sense.

Yep, you sure do. The good ol' "it doesn't follow the bible, therefore its wrong" type of common sense. One needs look no farther then my post immediately preceding this one to see your form of common sense - don't read an article, come to a conclusion anyways, and ignore all the inconvenient facts that show just how wrong you are.

I see science today being agenda driven and you only need to look at the whole global warming debate as an example.

The only agenda there is at the political level; scientifically its quite sound. But that's another debate, which was (maybe still is) ongoing in another thread...

As for faith, if the Bible doesn't stand up to the same type of scrutiny, then following it is useless.

Strange then, that you so steadfastly refuse to accept any results which conflicts with your pre-determined interpretation of the bible...

Bryan
 
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