We are unaware of any history of divers disappearing in this area. There is very little history of diving in the Vatu I Ra area prior to Dan's exploration of the sites in 1998, but Ra Divers operated in the Bligh waters prior to 1998, as did some liveaboard boats, without any such incidents.smlnd:
Dan Grenier lost at sea.
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Shasta_man
Contributor
Doc, I have to say that I'm very surprised, no, shocked, to hear you refer to looking for somebody's relative as "obsessional". You're talking about somebody's relative here not an inanimate object.
Yes, it looks quite bleak, and grim and there is unfortunately a good chance that we'll never know. We don't need to be medical doctors or experienced divers to reason that chances are very slim.
My point is only that if somebody wants to look for them and spend time and effort to do so, by all means let them. Judging from my life, finding the kids father IS a very important thing which will affect them the rest of their life and PARTICULARLY if there is no ending.
But I say this because I don't see helping the family and looking for Dan as exclusive of each other. I would think both could be pursued. The family themselves are the only ones to make this decision. I would hope they're not making this decision based on forum lurkers.
I will step back into the nether now and let this go back to informative comments.
Good luck to you all.
Yes, it looks quite bleak, and grim and there is unfortunately a good chance that we'll never know. We don't need to be medical doctors or experienced divers to reason that chances are very slim.
My point is only that if somebody wants to look for them and spend time and effort to do so, by all means let them. Judging from my life, finding the kids father IS a very important thing which will affect them the rest of their life and PARTICULARLY if there is no ending.
But I say this because I don't see helping the family and looking for Dan as exclusive of each other. I would think both could be pursued. The family themselves are the only ones to make this decision. I would hope they're not making this decision based on forum lurkers.
I will step back into the nether now and let this go back to informative comments.
Good luck to you all.
DocVikingo:
rhino61
Registered
Was there any other boats out the day they went missing? mary's Maytag, Garden of Eden, potluck, Vatu-i-ra Passage, Bligh waters? If they entered the water at 11:45am, that leaves a lot of daylight. It would be surprising if no other boats were in the area. Has anyone checked who else were out that day & if they saw anything. Has human intervention been ruled out? I know this is a controversional question & I cringe but does Dan have any enermies or anyone who may gain by his disappearance. Gulp, there, I said it? Maybe I'm "obsessive" but I think we need to look out side the square, as well as inside the square, no matter how ridiculous that may sound.
DocVikingo:
Doc,
With apologies to Tonya and other family members who monitor this thread . . . I completely agree with your assessment, Doc.
You have to ask yourself, if they are alive, where are they? There are two choices:
In the water, or on Land.
If in the water, I am sure we can all agree that there is no chance they could have survived much beyond the first couple of days. Or even that long.
If on land, then where are they? As one person pointed out, this isn't the far side of the moon. I don't personally know if this is true, but he/she also pointed out that there just aren't any islands that don't have some traffic from week-to-week. If they somehow made it to an island they surely wouldn't be hiding, they would have made some attempt to signal others if they were able. And the notion that their signals would go unseen after six weeks stretches credulity.
If they were not able to signal then how -- tough as it is to consider this -- could they survive very long? It was appropriate to pull out all the stops to look for them in the beginning in the hope that they had been pulled out by the currents and possibly were set ashore on some other island, but now, six weeks in, how can we realistically consider such an outcome?
I know it's hard when there is no evidence of what happened to them -- that must be the most difficult thing of all. And I think it is wonderful that so many have shared their concern and tried to help.
But Doc and medic_diver45 are correct. It's time to let the families grieve and consider what can be done to help them. They are the ones who need help now. If they want to keep on hoping then that is their right. But it's too easy for those of us who are not there, sitting safe and comfortable at home to keep saying, "they could make it!"
I don't know what happened that day. None of us do. They probably had a diving accident of some kind that involved one diver and the other diver tried to help and they both perished.
I personally think it was cruel for a psychic to imply they were alive and injured. And I also think that continuing to encourage the families to hope on into the future is not an act of kindness. People need to grieve. I grieve for Dan's loss -- he was a good person who brought a lot of happiness to a lot of people and he will be missed.
And if I'm wrong, then that's egg I will gladly wear. Lastly, does anyone know if a fund for Dan's kids has been set up?
JoeL
Lets take a break and share some of the good times we have had with Dan or Danniell. I will start. We have had so many good times with Dan over the years it is hard to pick one or two.
A few years ago Dan, Val and I were looking for new dive sites in the Ra Passage We had found the wonderful wall that started at about 40'. Dan and I were cruzing at about 80' when we felt something strange and rolled to see Val about 20' above going eye ball to eye ball with a Oceanic White Tip about twice her size. She was moving slowly into the reef as were most of the fish. As Dan and I came up to join her we saw that this big boy had two friends, one above us and one below. We all just looked at each other and off they went. It was so cool and the sharks got bigger each year.
Another story from this May when Dan stayed at our house for a week. Dan and I took my turned Z3 on a guy trip into the hills. It was a magic Spring day where the valley was 80 degrees and hills were cold. We drove in shifts up the windy roads, faster than we should have. After lunch in a small town it started to lightly snow. Dan ask me to keep the top down so he could have the snow in his face. He ask me if he could bring his young boys next time so they could see the snow for the first time. I told him he was always welcome at my home as he had always made me feel in his home. I think this is why we are still looking. Bob
A few years ago Dan, Val and I were looking for new dive sites in the Ra Passage We had found the wonderful wall that started at about 40'. Dan and I were cruzing at about 80' when we felt something strange and rolled to see Val about 20' above going eye ball to eye ball with a Oceanic White Tip about twice her size. She was moving slowly into the reef as were most of the fish. As Dan and I came up to join her we saw that this big boy had two friends, one above us and one below. We all just looked at each other and off they went. It was so cool and the sharks got bigger each year.
Another story from this May when Dan stayed at our house for a week. Dan and I took my turned Z3 on a guy trip into the hills. It was a magic Spring day where the valley was 80 degrees and hills were cold. We drove in shifts up the windy roads, faster than we should have. After lunch in a small town it started to lightly snow. Dan ask me to keep the top down so he could have the snow in his face. He ask me if he could bring his young boys next time so they could see the snow for the first time. I told him he was always welcome at my home as he had always made me feel in his home. I think this is why we are still looking. Bob
Uncle Danny has always been my Superman. When I was little, I remember him coming to the house. All of us kids would take all of the cushions off of the couch and we would all pile on top of him, and watch tv. (cat and dog included) Him and my brothers would have pizza eating contests. He also made the worlds worst pancakes, they usually weren't cooked all the way through.
I remember his jeep, and the fact that after it sat in our driveway was full of bees and I was the one who found them there.
I remember that he has always made me feel like I belonged. You see, his sister adopted me when I was 4. He is one of the first good memories in my life that I can remember.
I know that alot of people are thinking and saying that this is becoming an obsession, and maybe it is. I know that my heart says one thing and my mind another. And they are two totally different things.
But it is hard to give up, especially if you knew either one of these people. And the people who are still searching seem to think it is worth while, or else they wouldn't be doing it
Tonya
I remember his jeep, and the fact that after it sat in our driveway was full of bees and I was the one who found them there.
I remember that he has always made me feel like I belonged. You see, his sister adopted me when I was 4. He is one of the first good memories in my life that I can remember.
I know that alot of people are thinking and saying that this is becoming an obsession, and maybe it is. I know that my heart says one thing and my mind another. And they are two totally different things.
But it is hard to give up, especially if you knew either one of these people. And the people who are still searching seem to think it is worth while, or else they wouldn't be doing it
Tonya
I dont think that we need to have an argument about the probabilities of a good outcome. We know that they are against us.
The fact is the families, loved ones, and friends are not going to let this go until there is a better idea of what happened. I asked a number of questions about the found equipment and more details on the start of the dive. When it was stated that the cover to the BC dump valve cover was missing, is that a separate should dump on the right shoulder or is it where the power inflator connects? Any sign of damage to the threads? Im hoping there is someone knowledgeable who can respond.
I think that I read that someone heard Dan ask Danielle if she had the signaling device before the dive. Is this true? Was the device in the BC when it was found? The question would indicate that Dan might have expected strong currents and/or a challenging dive. Or is it a question that Dan always asked?
A key question is what went wrong? Was it equipment problems? Medical problems with one of them? Diver problems with doing the dive and/or very tough conditions? They didnt end up where they expected to be at the end of the dive. Why? Has Dan done this dive before? Many times? Does that tell us anything about whats likely or possible? If this was the first time doing this dive this way, then why? The rest of the divers where taken somewhere else, why?
I apologize to the searchers if these questions dont add anything new to what you have already covered, but there are many friends around the world who care and we dont know exactly whats been looked at and done.
The fact of the matter is, to me, that it is extremely unlikely that two divers could completely disappear off the earth, bad weather, big ocean, or not. Finding Danielles gear was lucky, but it didnt answer the main questions yet. It looks like she ditched her gear. Did it drift a long distance to where it was found? It is extremely unlikely that a trained diver would ditch her BC assembly and leave on her weights. But from the time passing with no sign of them, isnt it most likely that they are still underwater with weights attached? I say that because divers have been lost in several places around the world in the past few years but the bodies have been found in a matter of days or a couple of weeks by someone if they are on the surface. Without going into details, when sharks have been involved, parts have been found.
What scenario explains what could have happened?
BC
The fact is the families, loved ones, and friends are not going to let this go until there is a better idea of what happened. I asked a number of questions about the found equipment and more details on the start of the dive. When it was stated that the cover to the BC dump valve cover was missing, is that a separate should dump on the right shoulder or is it where the power inflator connects? Any sign of damage to the threads? Im hoping there is someone knowledgeable who can respond.
I think that I read that someone heard Dan ask Danielle if she had the signaling device before the dive. Is this true? Was the device in the BC when it was found? The question would indicate that Dan might have expected strong currents and/or a challenging dive. Or is it a question that Dan always asked?
A key question is what went wrong? Was it equipment problems? Medical problems with one of them? Diver problems with doing the dive and/or very tough conditions? They didnt end up where they expected to be at the end of the dive. Why? Has Dan done this dive before? Many times? Does that tell us anything about whats likely or possible? If this was the first time doing this dive this way, then why? The rest of the divers where taken somewhere else, why?
I apologize to the searchers if these questions dont add anything new to what you have already covered, but there are many friends around the world who care and we dont know exactly whats been looked at and done.
The fact of the matter is, to me, that it is extremely unlikely that two divers could completely disappear off the earth, bad weather, big ocean, or not. Finding Danielles gear was lucky, but it didnt answer the main questions yet. It looks like she ditched her gear. Did it drift a long distance to where it was found? It is extremely unlikely that a trained diver would ditch her BC assembly and leave on her weights. But from the time passing with no sign of them, isnt it most likely that they are still underwater with weights attached? I say that because divers have been lost in several places around the world in the past few years but the bodies have been found in a matter of days or a couple of weeks by someone if they are on the surface. Without going into details, when sharks have been involved, parts have been found.
What scenario explains what could have happened?
BC
smlnd:
What a family does is their call and it is completely understandable and I would never criticize a family member for not giving up hope -- for continuing to look -- some people never quit and some are ultimately vindicated. They must judge how best to proceed.
As for circumstances, it's not at all uncommon for a lost diver to never be recovered. It's also not that uncommon for a diver in difficulty to ditch equipment even while at depth, particularly in OOA scenarios or difficulties or perceived difficulties in breathing.
Note this report from Cozumel:
http://www.undercurrent.org/UCnow/articles/DriftAway200003.shtml
Cozumel is one of the most heavily dived areas in the world and that coastline is heavily populated with dozens of resorts. And yet they were never recovered. These incidents are common and I think in remote areas with well-known strong currents, they would be even more likely. There are so many scenarios where Danielle might have ditched her gear that it's probably impossible for us to ever know if she ditched it accidentally, intentionally or it came off by itself somehow. Perhaps it wasn't secured properly at the beginning of the dive. I'm an experienced diver and I've jumped in the water without fins or my BC snapped. We just don't know and the likelihood is that we will never know. I understand the urge, but I think it's very close to pointless to speculate and probably hurtful to the families to have to read such graphic what-ifs.
But I do agree that this is a time to reflect on Dan and Danielle's lives. I didn't know Danielle, her friends and family know her stories best. My acquaintance with Dan was short in person and then continued via email, but there is one set of smells, tastes and sensations I will never forget:
Coming up from a long, beautiful mind-numbing dive a little chilled and climbing back aboard that little aluminum boat of his, the wind whipping and the waves rocking, then grabbing a coat and sitting huddled together while Dan pours a hot cup of that chocolate drink (was it Ovaltine?) and serves us chocolate cake. The smell coming out of that thermos! For a chocolate lover like myself that was heaven, a great dive, a warm coat, hot chocolate and cake! Then a bumpy, salt-sprayed ride back to an idylic South Pacific isle and a great dinner in excellent company. Man! Dan, wherever you are, babe, THANKS!
I have lived something special that not all that many people will ever realize, not only the islands of Fiji themselves, but the people, the diving, unique and incredible and of course, Dan and Alisi and their kids. I hope in our grief and rememberance for Dan we can all give Dan's kids a gift of rememberance that someday they will treasure.
JoeL
MaryMuir
Registered
There's a movie out right now about two divers who were left behind on the Great Barrier Reef in Australia in 1998 when their dive boat headed back to town without them. Their bodies were never found. Some gear was found. Like this case, there was all sorts of speculation about what happened, and lots of unfounded rumours. Lots of people, especially in Queensland, didn't want to believe those divers died because they were left behind by their boat. Lots of strange theories got floated. The bottom line is, the bodies were never found, alive or dead, and no one knows exactly how they perished.
How is Fiji so different from that, except that the search for the divers started much earlier? We know Dan and Danielle went missing in an area of open sea with strong currents on a day when wind and sea conditions were unfavorable both for spotting people in the water and for their survival. Dan had done that dive many many times before, and the usual procedures were followed by the boat, but the other divers reported that the current was going a different direction than expected on the other side of the reef. Currents in the passage are usually fairly predictable from the tide tables, but that day they weren't.
Dan took Danielle on a different dive because she was supposed to go to DEMA with him and help man the booth. I'm told he said in front of other people that he wanted her to be able to accurately describe a current dive to potential customers.
Dan and Danielle disappeared on their second dive of the day. They came up from the first dive happy and laughing. They didn't report any equipment problems or health problems after the first dive, and they were keen to go back in the water.
There is no reason to think that Dan and Danielle didn't have signaling devices. It was a general rule on the dive boat that every diver should have a safety sausage, and the crew would provide them for any divers who didn't bring their own. Dan had an air horn on his rig. But I can tell you from my own experience that in windy conditions, a safety sausage blows over and you end up holding it up against the wind with one hand while holding the end closed under water with the other. And an air horn is very hard if not impossible to hear on the boat if the diver is down wind of you. If there are swells, the boat can only see you when you are on the crest. It would have been very easy for the boat to miss spotting Dan and Danielle if they were any distance away from the boat when they started signalling.
Not that many boats go out to the area of the Vatuira Passage where Dan and Danielle disappeared. There's a freighter that goes through on its way to Ellington Wharf on a regular schedule, I think once or twice a week. Local fishing boats wouldn't have gone out that day due to the rough seas. The Naia was in Tonga that week. So no, there probably weren't any other boats in the vicinity at the time. Radio contact was made by the dive boat and other boats summoned to help with the search that very afternoon.
I contacted the Yasawas through some people I knew a few days after Dan and Danielle disappeared, to ask for any boats going out from the villages to keep an eye peeled for them. The answer I got back was that boats weren't going out just then because the wind and sea conditions were so bad it was like a hurricane. Those were the conditions at the relevant time in the area that Dan and Danielle were likely headed for. Danielle's BCD, with reg and empty tank attached, was found near there later on. The dump valve in question was the emergency dump valve, not the power inflator.
I had met Danielle and dived with her. She was a lovely young woman and very sweet and good natured. My condolences go out to her family and her childhood friend Nick. It's understandable that they are devastated by losing her so young.
Dan's family in Fiji has accepted that he is gone. They searched everywhere and every how they could for days and days and days before giving up. It may have been the most extensive sea serach ever conducted in Fiji for all I know. Now Alisi and Dan's boys are trying to put their lives back together. Any donations to the educational fund for Cori and Cota, Dan's young sons, would be appreciated. Linda Puckett would have the information for that fund, as she organized it. There are no free schools here, BTW, the parents have to pay school fees every term and many people here struggle to come up with the money for those fees, modest as they are by American standards.
Some of you who visited Dan's home might remember his dog named Boris that he kept tied up during the day. When I moved to Fiji, Dan gave Boris to me to be my guard dog, as I was planning to rent a house and get myself a dog. Boris is outside on my verandah as I type this. He's a very good guard dog, affectionate to me and fierce to any strangers near my gate, and with him here I feel like Dan is still looking out for me even now.
I miss my dear friend very much, and I will always have great memories of him. I know that taking care of Cori and Cota was Dan's top priority in life, so that's where I want to focus my efforts.
How is Fiji so different from that, except that the search for the divers started much earlier? We know Dan and Danielle went missing in an area of open sea with strong currents on a day when wind and sea conditions were unfavorable both for spotting people in the water and for their survival. Dan had done that dive many many times before, and the usual procedures were followed by the boat, but the other divers reported that the current was going a different direction than expected on the other side of the reef. Currents in the passage are usually fairly predictable from the tide tables, but that day they weren't.
Dan took Danielle on a different dive because she was supposed to go to DEMA with him and help man the booth. I'm told he said in front of other people that he wanted her to be able to accurately describe a current dive to potential customers.
Dan and Danielle disappeared on their second dive of the day. They came up from the first dive happy and laughing. They didn't report any equipment problems or health problems after the first dive, and they were keen to go back in the water.
There is no reason to think that Dan and Danielle didn't have signaling devices. It was a general rule on the dive boat that every diver should have a safety sausage, and the crew would provide them for any divers who didn't bring their own. Dan had an air horn on his rig. But I can tell you from my own experience that in windy conditions, a safety sausage blows over and you end up holding it up against the wind with one hand while holding the end closed under water with the other. And an air horn is very hard if not impossible to hear on the boat if the diver is down wind of you. If there are swells, the boat can only see you when you are on the crest. It would have been very easy for the boat to miss spotting Dan and Danielle if they were any distance away from the boat when they started signalling.
Not that many boats go out to the area of the Vatuira Passage where Dan and Danielle disappeared. There's a freighter that goes through on its way to Ellington Wharf on a regular schedule, I think once or twice a week. Local fishing boats wouldn't have gone out that day due to the rough seas. The Naia was in Tonga that week. So no, there probably weren't any other boats in the vicinity at the time. Radio contact was made by the dive boat and other boats summoned to help with the search that very afternoon.
I contacted the Yasawas through some people I knew a few days after Dan and Danielle disappeared, to ask for any boats going out from the villages to keep an eye peeled for them. The answer I got back was that boats weren't going out just then because the wind and sea conditions were so bad it was like a hurricane. Those were the conditions at the relevant time in the area that Dan and Danielle were likely headed for. Danielle's BCD, with reg and empty tank attached, was found near there later on. The dump valve in question was the emergency dump valve, not the power inflator.
I had met Danielle and dived with her. She was a lovely young woman and very sweet and good natured. My condolences go out to her family and her childhood friend Nick. It's understandable that they are devastated by losing her so young.
Dan's family in Fiji has accepted that he is gone. They searched everywhere and every how they could for days and days and days before giving up. It may have been the most extensive sea serach ever conducted in Fiji for all I know. Now Alisi and Dan's boys are trying to put their lives back together. Any donations to the educational fund for Cori and Cota, Dan's young sons, would be appreciated. Linda Puckett would have the information for that fund, as she organized it. There are no free schools here, BTW, the parents have to pay school fees every term and many people here struggle to come up with the money for those fees, modest as they are by American standards.
Some of you who visited Dan's home might remember his dog named Boris that he kept tied up during the day. When I moved to Fiji, Dan gave Boris to me to be my guard dog, as I was planning to rent a house and get myself a dog. Boris is outside on my verandah as I type this. He's a very good guard dog, affectionate to me and fierce to any strangers near my gate, and with him here I feel like Dan is still looking out for me even now.
I miss my dear friend very much, and I will always have great memories of him. I know that taking care of Cori and Cota was Dan's top priority in life, so that's where I want to focus my efforts.
rhino61
Registered
Thank you "maytag", I guess it is time to let them go! Peace Be with you Dan & Danielle.
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