danger: solo openwater vs. cave diving w. buddy

[Nemrod]

Is this the Solo Diving Forum? I thought this was a no troll, no bashing of solo Forum?
N

 

[wb416]

Is this the Solo Diving Forum? I thought this was a no troll, no bashing of solo Forum?
N

your right... but to answer the question, I did have to proffer an opinion on the comparison between cave and solo.... it wasn't my intent to trash solo diving, just compare/contrast...

...it might be interesting commentary to add that there were some high profile deaths in the cave community in the last few years... and a couple of them were solo cave dives... some/many people even argue that solo cave is safe and acceptable.... but that's your call... I think cave diving is one of the most serene types of diving, so I certainly understand the argument, but it's not something that I practice (solo cave)...

 

[Tegg]

There's very little that you can't solve with a competent, trusted buddy in a cave.

I think solo is inherently more dangerous. Anytime you forget to bring your backup brain along, you are potentially susceptible to mental blips.

If someone has "mental blips" maybe they shouldn't be diving in the first place?:huh:

A trained solo diver who is aware of the risks and also aware and profecient in the skills to resolve issues that can happen while OW solo, is going to have a nice dive.

I do agree that an untrained solo OW diver diving solo is just as stupid as an untrained "cave diver" diving in a cave.

 

[wb416]

If someone has "mental blips" maybe they shouldn't be diving in the first place?:huh:

Be a pain in the :kissbutt: (or worse) to have your last thought be... "..that's never happened before..."

A trained solo diver who is aware of the risks and also aware and profecient in the skills to resolve issues that can happen while OW solo, is going to have a nice dive.

I do agree that an untrained solo OW diver diving solo is just as stupid as an untrained "cave diver" diving in a cave.

... I would put the untrained cave diver in a much higher risk category, buddied up OR solo... I think dumb luck and God's grace can protect the untrained solo OW diver in OW easier than in a cave... if the untrained OW solo diver runs short of air, he/she can bolt for the surface and most likely survive.... if that happens in a cave, the show's over, no if's, and's, or but's.. that's part of the reason that many of the cave death's were un-cave trained Instructors and DMs, they expected competence in one environ to carry over to the next. Environment isn't as forgiveable, and can't be overcome in an emergency with dumbluck (unless at the entrance).

Turn the tables around with competent training (cave and solo), and the higher risk swings to the solo diver.... mostly due to the redundancy and the training cave divers receive that teaches methods of egress while sharing air or in a no viz, or entanglement situations... the cave training with a competent buddy mitigates the panic factor (could still happen, but is much less likely), giving a thinking team two sets of everything to "get back home"... the trained/experienced solo diver is at a slight disadv here just due to the gear redundancy, and more importantly the possibility of another brain to bounce options off of, not to mention a set of eyes to see issues that you might not be able to see...

...so, I'd still say that given equally competent & experienced/trained divers, the cave divers are still at lower risk than the solo diver...

 

[Tegg]

Be a pain in the :kissbutt: (or worse) to have your last thought be... "..that's never happened before..."



... I would put the untrained cave diver in a much higher risk category, buddied up OR solo... I think dumb luck and God's grace can protect the untrained solo OW diver in OW easier than in a cave... if the untrained OW solo diver runs short of air, he/she can bolt for the surface and most likely survive.... if that happens in a cave, the show's over, no if's, and's, or but's.. that's part of the reason that many of the cave death's were un-cave trained Instructors and DMs, they expected competence in one environ to carry over to the next. Environment isn't as forgiveable, and can't be overcome in an emergency with dumbluck (unless at the entrance).

Turn the tables around with competent training (cave and solo), and the higher risk swings to the solo diver.... mostly due to the redundancy and the training cave divers receive that teaches methods of egress while sharing air or in a no viz, or entanglement situations... the cave training with a competent buddy mitigates the panic factor (could still happen, but is much less likely), giving a thinking team two sets of everything to "get back home"... the trained/experienced solo diver is at a slight disadv here just due to the gear redundancy, and more importantly the possibility of another brain to bounce options off of, not to mention a set of eyes to see issues that you might not be able to see...

...so, I'd still say that given equally competent & experienced/trained divers, the cave divers are still at lower risk than the solo diver...

So, do me a favor... read this over and tell me what's incorrect.

Solo Diving Issues in OW:

Loss of second stage
loss of first stage
loss of bouancy
loss of primary gas supply


Cavediving with Buddy Issues:

silt
line entrapment
line loss
no direct ascent in emergency
Loss of second stage
loss of first stage
loss of bouancy
loss of primary gas supply



So, explain to me, when a trained solo diver wo also has fully redundant gear is in more danger then a buddy team in a silty cave 2200ft from the entrance?

Just wondering the logic being used, not questioning your intelligence.

 

[wb416]

So, do me a favor... read this over and tell me what's incorrect.

[snip]

So, explain to me, when a trained solo diver wo also has fully redundant gear is in more danger then a buddy team in a silty cave 2200ft from the entrance?

Just wondering the logic being used, not questioning your intelligence.

As I stated previously:
[...the cave training with a competent buddy mitigates the panic factor (could still happen, but is much less likely), giving a thinking team two sets of everything to "get back home"... the trained/experienced solo diver is at a slight disadv here just due to the gear redundancy, and more importantly the possibility of another brain to bounce options off of, not to mention a set of eyes to see issues that you might not be able to see...]

I've done both, and this is my opinion... YMMV..

Not to appear too philosophical, but there are no "unsolvable issues" in either list you present. The only "unsolvables" are when an apparent solution remains elusive (unseen).... leading to possible "perceptual narrowing", and further complications from relatively easy complications..... a competent buddy team can mitigate that cycle moreso than a solo diver can... again... YMMV

cheers!

 

[dherbman]

Equally safe if both done properly.

 

[Nemrod]

"So, explain to me, when a trained solo diver wo also has fully redundant gear is in more danger then a buddy team in a silty cave 2200ft from the entrance?

Just wondering the logic being used, not questioning your intelligence."

Uh oh, your using the old noggin there! Your exactly right and that is a very simple way to put it into perspective. Maybe they carry a rock boring drill and explosive on themselves, where would be the correct DIR location of a rock drill and on which D ring would the explosive be attached, no metal to metal and only with a double square knot of course. N

 

[Solitude Diver]

I’d add to the list of solo ow risks: “line entanglement”. That is my biggest fear when solo. There are numerous stories of solo divers caught in line and running out of air before they could get free. The ’05 DAN diving death report has at least on incident in it, and there have been numerous others.

 

[wb416]

I’d add to the list of solo ow risks: “line entanglement”. That is my biggest fear when solo. There are numerous stories of solo divers caught in line and running out of air before they could get free. The ’05 DAN diving death report has at least on incident in it, and there have been numerous others.

Not only the monofilament fishing line, but also the monofilament netting, especially like what is used on the Canadian side of the Great Lakes... the stuff is insidious!! Don't often see it until it has you. I'll take cave line entanglements anyday.