Dr Deco:
I also love this aspect of diving, and this is why I love this forum so much, thanks for all the help!
I also love this aspect of diving, and this is why I love this forum so much, thanks for all the help!
Decompression Theory
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large_diver
Contributor
Liquid,
Minor correction -- I know you are not a native English speaker. This note is meant to help, not be critical.
I think you need to go back and replace the word "anyone" with "everyone" in your posts above. You say on a few different occasions that GUE training is "not for anyone".
I think most folks will get your meaning, but with many new divers around here, accuracy is important.
Best Regards,
LD
Minor correction -- I know you are not a native English speaker. This note is meant to help, not be critical.
I think you need to go back and replace the word "anyone" with "everyone" in your posts above. You say on a few different occasions that GUE training is "not for anyone".
I think most folks will get your meaning, but with many new divers around here, accuracy is important.
Best Regards,
LD
Thanks, Largediver.
I hope I corrected all of the anyone/everyone mistakes.
I hope I corrected all of the anyone/everyone mistakes.
Lost Yooper
Guest
Well Rick, I'm not about to get into an argument over the subject, but as I said my in previous post, these agencies still endorse deep air diving and solo cave/tech diving. Anyone who has paid attention over the years knows that these activities are among the most dangerous in the sport of diving and divers are dying as the result of it (if you don't beleive this, open your eyes). These agencies know this and keeping these courses and endorsements in their curriculam comes down to greed not diver safety.
As I also said, there are many instructors out there who are smart enough to realize this and choose to train their students differently. My TDI instructor was like this. He couldn't stand the agency, but he used his instructors card to train his students (open water to tech) closer to GUE standards and practices. I know there are many of these instructors out there, but the trick is finding one.
Mike
PS. I'm certainly not saying that all GUE instructors are top notch, but comparing agency to agency, it is my opinion that GUE is leaps and bounds above the rest. But you know what they say about opinions...
As I also said, there are many instructors out there who are smart enough to realize this and choose to train their students differently. My TDI instructor was like this. He couldn't stand the agency, but he used his instructors card to train his students (open water to tech) closer to GUE standards and practices. I know there are many of these instructors out there, but the trick is finding one.
Mike
PS. I'm certainly not saying that all GUE instructors are top notch, but comparing agency to agency, it is my opinion that GUE is leaps and bounds above the rest. But you know what they say about opinions...
I agree with you that deep air (beyond 50M) and solo overhead diving is not smart (indeed, my personal optimum team for any significant penetration is three). However, I can find nowhere that either are condoned by IANTD, and TDI's extended range course ends at 54M for air. I have seen that TDI promotes solo diving as a specialty course, but I don't see that carried over to overhead environments. Could you provide a reference?
It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that I like to leave all, agencies included, "innocent until proven guilty."
Thanks,
Rick
It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that I like to leave all, agencies included, "innocent until proven guilty."
Thanks,
Rick
Lost Yooper
Guest
Take a look at both Mount and Gilliams past. They are the poster children of deep air solo diving. I've personally talked to a highly certified IANTD instructor while on a dive boat, who is renowned for deep solo cave dives with closed circuit rebreathers -- a true nutt case. By his own admission, he said IANTD does nothing to curve these practices and by doing so actually endorses it. In fact, he even teaches students these things. You see these type of comments on Aquanaut all the time.
At some point in time, or another, I've heard both Mount and Gilliam say that deep air can be "dealt" with and that solo diving can be safer than buddy diving in any environment. I'll admit that it has been awhile since I've seen them admit to such things, so perhaps their personnal policies have changed a bit. I can say that I have never seem them retract such statements.
I believe that they should end these practices and begin to influence "their people" that deep air and solo diving are a bad idea -- like GUE does. GUE took a stand against the norm that these agencies instilled in the industry, and fortunately their message is being heard which is resulting in better divers (IMO).
Mike
PS. I'll be the first to admit that I've done some dumb things before -- deep air, solo diving, and poor deco procedures (all at the same time). My only message is that these things are crazy and can be avoided by either training under GUE or under a really good instructor that hasn't stopped learning and can see the forest through the trees.
At some point in time, or another, I've heard both Mount and Gilliam say that deep air can be "dealt" with and that solo diving can be safer than buddy diving in any environment. I'll admit that it has been awhile since I've seen them admit to such things, so perhaps their personnal policies have changed a bit. I can say that I have never seem them retract such statements.
I believe that they should end these practices and begin to influence "their people" that deep air and solo diving are a bad idea -- like GUE does. GUE took a stand against the norm that these agencies instilled in the industry, and fortunately their message is being heard which is resulting in better divers (IMO).
Mike
PS. I'll be the first to admit that I've done some dumb things before -- deep air, solo diving, and poor deco procedures (all at the same time). My only message is that these things are crazy and can be avoided by either training under GUE or under a really good instructor that hasn't stopped learning and can see the forest through the trees.
LY-
I dont belive IANTD advocates solo diving as regular procidure, nor deep air.
It was the individual instructor, and personaly, I'd stir clear of such nut cases.
It is true that in certain cases, having a buddy is more danegerouse than not, but in my opinion, buddyes of the kind that is safer to dive without, have nothing to look for in tech diving.
I dont belive IANTD advocates solo diving as regular procidure, nor deep air.
It was the individual instructor, and personaly, I'd stir clear of such nut cases.
It is true that in certain cases, having a buddy is more danegerouse than not, but in my opinion, buddyes of the kind that is safer to dive without, have nothing to look for in tech diving.
Lost Yooper
Guest
Liquid,
Right from the horses mouth, Tom Mount makes his case for teaching deep air:
http://www.aquanaut.com/bin/mlist/aquanaut/techdiver/display?21954,from
Many people see this and, on the face of it, he seems to make sense. However, when you take a look at the big picture, you'll see the death toll is adding up for deep air divers, and Mount/IANTD/TDI are the examples they are following. In fact, it seems to me that every time you hear about a death, there's no one to give first hand information -- solo or poor buddy skills.
Rather than change the attitudes, text books, and underlying endorsments, IANTD continues down a dangerous path for their students and instructors to follow. Their reasoning is because it's popular and easy to dive deep air, but they are the reason it's popular and easy because they have little to no interest in changing the diving industry and create a safer industry as a whole (IMO).
I wish I could find one of his statements regarding solo cave diving. I'll keep looking.
People can obviously choose to follow whom ever they like. Personally, I choose to follow a different crowd who (IMO) have a better philosophy and track record.
Take care.
Mike
IMO, the only time that having a buddy is more dangerous than not, is if he isn't safe enough to dive with in the first place. In wich case don't dive. IMO, having a GOOD buddy is always safer than solo -- two minds are generally better than one especially if they are of like mind and philosophy.
Right from the horses mouth, Tom Mount makes his case for teaching deep air:
http://www.aquanaut.com/bin/mlist/aquanaut/techdiver/display?21954,from
Many people see this and, on the face of it, he seems to make sense. However, when you take a look at the big picture, you'll see the death toll is adding up for deep air divers, and Mount/IANTD/TDI are the examples they are following. In fact, it seems to me that every time you hear about a death, there's no one to give first hand information -- solo or poor buddy skills.
Rather than change the attitudes, text books, and underlying endorsments, IANTD continues down a dangerous path for their students and instructors to follow. Their reasoning is because it's popular and easy to dive deep air, but they are the reason it's popular and easy because they have little to no interest in changing the diving industry and create a safer industry as a whole (IMO).
I wish I could find one of his statements regarding solo cave diving. I'll keep looking.
People can obviously choose to follow whom ever they like. Personally, I choose to follow a different crowd who (IMO) have a better philosophy and track record.
Take care.
Mike
IMO, the only time that having a buddy is more dangerous than not, is if he isn't safe enough to dive with in the first place. In wich case don't dive. IMO, having a GOOD buddy is always safer than solo -- two minds are generally better than one especially if they are of like mind and philosophy.
svs3
Contributor
Right about now is when I wish I had a copy of the Wa-Wa article from aquacorps. You know the one I'm talking, don't you ,Mike? Where Killum and Oden report on making covert 450+ fsw bounce dives on single al80 with no support during some kind of dive safety conference. Then if I remember correctly, try to weasle they way out of any responsibility visa vie their roles as "dive industry leaders" by saying basically: do as we say not as we do.
Heck if one of Mount's "most experienced and senior" (Tom's words) IANDTI instructors doesn't stand a chance on a electronic CCR, what chance do the rest of us have?
Dive Safe,
Sam
and Oden report on making covert 450+ fsw bounce dives on single al80 with no support during some kind of dive safety conference. Then if I remember correctly, try to weasle they way out of any responsibility visa vie their roles as "dive industry leaders" by saying basically: do as we say not as we do. Heck if one of Mount's "most experienced and senior" (Tom's words) IANDTI instructors doesn't stand a chance on a electronic CCR, what chance do the rest of us have?
Dive Safe,
Sam
Lost Yooper
Guest
Hey Sam, I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one here who has heard of these things.
Thanks,
Mike
Thanks,
Mike
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